Razer Nostromo or Naga?

[Breand]

Anyone using the Razer Nostromo or Naga for MMOing? Im wondering which one I should get. I'm thinking the Nostromo is more adaptable to do whatever I want, but the Naga might be easier to use. Naga might be simpler for rotations because I can just click down the line of buttons.

[Snowreap]

Logitech G13 > Razer Nostromo. more buttons, and the ability to assign Lua scripts to buttons gives you a lot more options.

plus the LCD is nice for Ventrilo, to identify people whose voice you don't (yet) recognize.

-ken

[strife]

I have the Nostromo and although I don't use it(havne't adapted myself to it from using a standard keyboard yet, which I will do in my next game), the ergonomics of it are awesome.. if you have carpal tunnel or anything like that then I would highly recommend.

The only reason I don't use it is cause I haven't devoted enough time to breaking myself from a standard keyboard.

[Skelas]

Logitech G13

It's a bit harder to get accustomed to than the Nostromo (at least for me it was) but the added buttons are a godsend. I'm not a fan of the Naga, I have one and for me the buttons are just too small. If it only had 6 buttons it would be perfect. The logitech G700 mouse is the mouse i've been happiest with.

[Breand]

I did purchase the Naga...hopefully the buttons will be OK. getting it today.

G13 will probably be next.

[Diggles]

why do you guys keep wasting your money on these programmable numpad devices?

standard keyboard has 30 keys easily within reach on left side of keyboard + hundreds of possibilities using ctrl/shift/alt modifiers

everything a programmable mouse/input device can be done with a free macro program.

at the very least get a a programmable KEYBOARD. do you guys really have the desktop space for numpad + keyboard + mouse? moving your left hand from device to device since numpad cant do many important functions.

[Breand]

I don't really get the point of the keypad either, but the mouse is huge to me for circle strafing. Just makes things a lot easier if I can map ability rotations (altho marauders don't really have a straight rotation so there will be a learning curve) to my mouse thumb, leaving my left hand free to concentrate more on movement.

[strife]

why do you guys keep wasting your money on these programmable numpad devices?

standard keyboard has 30 keys easily within reach on left side of keyboard + hundreds of possibilities using ctrl/shift/alt modifiers

everything a programmable mouse/input device can be done with a free macro program.

at the very least get a a programmable KEYBOARD. do you guys really have the desktop space for numpad + keyboard + mouse? moving your left hand from device to device since numpad cant do many important functions.

Probably because they... (shocking)want to? I did it for the simple fact that, playing on a standard keyboard(currently the g15) for hours on end is tiresome and causes my hands to hurt.. the ergonomics of the gamepads can't be beat by a standard keyboard. Even your ergonomic keyboards don't provide the support of the gamepads.

I have plenty of desk space so having a gamepad around isn't an issue... and I also run both the programs on my G15 as well as AHK for some of the more advanced stuff.

Also for someone who isn't technical, the programmable keyboards/gamepads are easier to get macros in than AHK or whatever macro program you use.

[Zirak]

I quite like my Nostromo. I might try a Logitech if my Nostromo ever fails but I'm honestly not sure how I would handle more buttons. As it is now with the Nostromo all the buttons are easy to reach and it is comfortable to use. It seems to me that an additional row of buttons would be cumbersome to access.

[Diggles]

I did it for the simple fact that, playing on a standard keyboard(currently the g15) for hours on end is tiresome and causes my hands to hurt.. the ergonomics of the gamepads can't be beat by a standard keyboard. Even your ergonomic keyboards don't provide the support of the gamepads.

Sounds like you havent tried a tested/reviewed ergo, like Microsoft's (best seller & only $30). I've on my 3rd keyboard with this design, since '98 when Microsoft bought out the company that created it just to acquire the design.



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also most people arent even remotely close to having proper ergo setups for their computers.

keyboards are often too high/low or farway
monitor is often too low
mouse is usually too far away

[strife]

I did it for the simple fact that, playing on a standard keyboard(currently the g15) for hours on end is tiresome and causes my hands to hurt.. the ergonomics of the gamepads can't be beat by a standard keyboard. Even your ergonomic keyboards don't provide the support of the gamepads.

Sounds like you havent tried a tested/reviewed ergo, like Microsoft's (best seller & only $30). I've on my 3rd keyboard with this design, since '98 when Microsoft bought out the company that created it just to acquire the design.

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also most people arent even remotely close to having proper ergo setups for their computers.

keyboards are often too high/low or farway
monitor is often too low
mouse is usually too far away

Tried a bunch, I actually have multiple and mostly use them at work. You ever tried a game pad(specifically the nostromo)?

[Breand]

Diggles prefers communist russia

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[Skelas]

For me, it's all about being able to use my thumb for all my movement. It just gives me more flexibility.

[Grunldesnapp]

Razor Nostromo, G15 keyboard and Microsoft gaming mouse (actually pretty good). I couldnt play without my Nostromo, every defensive/offensive/movement ability (except for facing) is directly under a finger of my left hand. I have tried to play without and it really shows.

[Snowreap]

here's why I use the G13:

1. thumbstick. this frees all 4 fingers of my left hand for abilities. there was a time when I used WASD for movement, and the need to use 1 or 2 fingers for movement left me with restrictions on what abilities I could use when. for example, my archer in Warhammer Online could only use certain abilities while circle-strafing clockwise around a target (those reachable with my index finger). and if I strafed counter-clockwise, I could only use abilities reachable with my ring finger (using the mouse to click buttons that I couldn't reach the keybinds for was problematic while circle-strafing).

2. programmability. I don't mean assigning simple macros, I mean full programmability. all of my G13 buttons have a full-blown Lua script behind them, and what any particular button does can be modified depending on which other keys are down, or which ones aren't down, or how long it has been since any arbitrary button was pressed or released. for example, in RIFT most of my action buttons are set up to repeat a minimum of 3 times when pressed, 0.25s apart no matter how quickly I release them. but if I hold any of them down more than 0.75s they continue to repeat until I let go. most keyboard macro utilities can't achieve this level of programmability.

3. number of keys. the G13 has 22 G-keys, plus 2 thumbstick buttons. and since I can define any of them as modifiers (or even combinations) the number of 'effective' keys is pretty much limited only by my tolerance for complicated keyboard layouts. in RIFT I use 14 buttons for 'direct' action button mappings, which when combined with the 1 button I have bound to "Ctrl", gives me 28 direct actions (all with the triple-tap then repeat behavior described above). 3 of the buttons are configured to cycle groups of F-keys (for example, if I hold down G16 it will repeat F1 every 0.25s for 1.5s total, then it will repeat F2 every 0.25s for 1.5s total, then it will repeat F3 every 0.25s for 1.5s total, then it will repeat F4 every 0.25s until I release. if I release G16 early the cycle is stopped immediately, whereever it happens to be. G17 and G18 are similar, but for F5-F8 and F9-F12. the 1.5s value is the RIFT GCD for most classes, but if I press G19 it changes the 1.5s 'advance' timer to 0.75s (since rogues have a shorter GCD)). those same 4 keys also do double-duty as target selection keys (set focus, target focus, target previous target, target target-of-target) if I press them while G22 (Ctrl) is held down. 5 of the buttons have simple direct keybindings (tab (next target), V (Ventrilo PTT), M (map), B (bags) and C (character sheet)). all told, I have easy access to something like 57 actions total, and that is using only a single modifier key (G22). and the G13 has 2 more 'modes' (M2 and M3) and mode-select keys (M1/M2/M3) that I don't even use most of the time.

4. LCD display. yeah, that's nice too. I use mine for FRAPS and Ventrilo so I don't have to use the screen overlays (which aren't compatible with all games).

-ken

[Zirak]

Yes Snow, but you are some kind of strange mutant. I rather like the relative simplicity of my Nostromo. :p

[Snowreap]

as my wife likes to say, "I'm completely normal for my type".

-ken

[strife]

as my wife likes to say, "I'm completely normal for my type".

-ken

I tell some of the guys at work that I don't geek to their level...

[Slamz]

Nostomo and G13 are basically the same thing. G13 is overall superior in my opinion but I did prefer the Nostomo thumb-pad over the G13 thumb-stick. I got used to it, though.


The big reason to own a keypad is the thumbstick. That gives you a lot better gaming control than any keyboard.

Typical keyboard user layout #1:
Right hand on mouse
Left hand controlling WASD or some variation and there's only so many buttons you can hit while moving unless you move your hand from your mouse or your WASD keys. e.g., you need to turn to follow your target while running backwards and hitting control-9. Easy on a numpad, hard on a keyboard.

Typical keyboard user layout #2:
Right hand on numpad
Left hand for activating abilities
Now you're a "keyboard turner" and we will all make fun of you as some rogue-type flits around backstabbing you and you can't turn fast enough to deal with him.


Typical keypad user:
Right hand on mouse
Left fingers on keypad with easy access to 22 buttons (G13)
Left thumb controlling WASD via the thumb-stick
Now you have the best possible setup with maximum access to abilities, mouse-turning and movement. I only switch to my keyboard if I need to type.

(I also use a mouse that has 9 buttons... Logitech MX Revolution. There's probably a better gaming mouse than that but I'll probably keep using this one until it dies.)


The ability to create simple macros is nice too. I macro, for example:
Short range attack on a timer ->
Short range attack not on a timer ->
Long range attack on a timer ->
Long range attack not on a timer

So it will automatically mash each of those abilities in one button push. If I'm in range and the cooldown is up for the first ability, that fires and the rest get ignored due to the global cooldown. If the first one is on a cooldown, then the second ability will fire if I'm in range, etc. Macros like this can be setup in seconds from the Logitech application.



I think it's a tremendous advantage to have one of these keypads.

I vote G13 over Nostomo for the extra buttons. The LCD is nice too, though. There's a gadget that will show you your CPU load and temperatures, for example, or the one for Vent that shows you who's talking.

You could do most of this with the Logitech programmable keyboard (with LCD) but that doesn't have the thumbstick.

It's all about the thumbstick.

[Diggles]

Nostomo and G13 are basically the same thing. G13 is overall superior in my opinion but I did prefer the Nostomo thumb-pad over the G13 thumb-stick. I got used to it, though.


The big reason to own a keypad is the thumbstick. That gives you a lot better gaming control than any keyboard.

Typical keyboard user layout #1:
Right hand on mouse
Left hand controlling WASD or some variation and there's only so many buttons you can hit while moving unless you move your hand from your mouse or your WASD keys. e.g., you need to turn to follow your target while running backwards and hitting control-9. Easy on a numpad, hard on a keyboard.

Typical keyboard user layout #2:
Right hand on numpad
Left hand for activating abilities
Now you're a "keyboard turner" and we will all make fun of you as some rogue-type flits around backstabbing you and you can't turn fast enough to deal with him.

100% keyboarders account for probably less than 1% of gamers. I've only run across 1 GOOD FPS player (in 15 years) that was 100% keyboard like you describe in #2

#1 you are way off. FPS players use MOUSE to turn and keyboard for strafing. Forward & backwards movement keys are personal preference. Myself, like World Quake Champion Thresh, use mouse for forward movement. With multi-button or slider mice you can also use it for backwards movement. Using that kind of setup, you can effectively play most FPS with even 1 hand: turn, forward, shoot all on the mouse.

There are VERY little combinations that I cant accomplish with A & F as strafe keys, z for backwards. Intelligently laying out your hotbar goes a long way; as in putting frequenly used abilities in easy to hit spots, mainly anything middle or pointer finger can reach. I'm also able to quickly hit emergency buttons on the right side of the keyboard, something you padders cant do easily.


And to answer you Strife, nope never used a numpad for gaming, have no need for it. Left side of my keyboard gives me everything I need to play. The only macros I've ever used are aliases in Quake/Halflife/TF2 for Rocket Jumping & barrel spin, which can easily be accomplish thru config files (since 1998) and a macro maker program to grind shit in Starwars Galaxies while I was AFK. MMO's with their horrible latency, server lag & lack of multiplayer optimization do not lend themselves well to hardware macro'ing, especially true in PVP which requires absolute flexibility.

Just like mechanical fruit harvesters, sure its less work for you, but you end up with 70% of your potential instead of doing it by hand and getting 100%

[strife]

So basically what you're saying is... your way is best and anyone who doesn't do it your way is stupid even though you've never tried it any other way.

There are plenty of professional(as in at least gamers with a sponsorship) that use gamepads.

[Slamz]

Using that kind of setup, you can effectively play most FPS with even 1 hand: turn, forward, shoot all on the mouse.

Bolded for relevance.

What you are describing is fine for FPS gaming. Strafing on keyboard, turning and shooting on mouse, map "grenade" and "activate" wherever is handy and Bob's your uncle. No need for a keypad when you only have to map 3 ability buttons.

Now translate to an MMORPG where you have 30 abilities and you're fucked. How easily can YOU activate all of your abilities? Which ones are useful but you never use because you ran out of room to map them, or else you have to let go of something in order to hit the key you need? You say you put your emergency keys on the right side of your keyboard? So you have to let go of your mouse to use them? Or do you have to reach over with your thumb? omg u r noob! My thumb activates additional buttons on my mouse!


With the G13, I can be moving backwards, strafing left turning right and accessing a minimum of 22 hotkeys worth of abilities without ever having to let go of anything.

Obviously if I thought the keyboard was superior, I'd go back to it. That's how I played EQ. But EQ only had 8 hotkeys. It was WOW and the sudden need for dozens of hotkeys that made me look for another solution.

Really I consider the G13 to be borderline cheating. It probably is cheating if you factor in macros.

[Fretty]

For me, it's all about being able to use my thumb for all my movement. It just gives me more flexibility.

I heard you use your thumb for other things too.

[Fretty]

#1 you are way off. FPS players use MOUSE to turn and keyboard for strafing. Forward & backwards movement keys are personal preference. Myself, like World Quake Champion Thresh, use mouse for forward movement. With multi-button or slider mice you can also use it for backwards movement. Using that kind of setup, you can effectively play most FPS with even 1 hand: turn, forward, shoot all on the mouse.

That's how I've had my controls setup since Duke Nukem and Quake. I've only recently had to change that setup to compensate for the FPS's that now have "aim" (such as Battlefield). Switched over to using 'W' for forward instead of the mouse, as the mouse buttons are now used for aim and shoot. Took a lot of getting use to and I know my movement ability suffered a lot while learning this new setup. I still don't think I'm as fluid in BF3 as I ever was in any game that didn't have aiming as a feature.

[Rallick]

I had a hard time getting used to my gamepad and had it sidelined for quite a while. Might be an idea to get it out again as I have a new desk that I can use it better.

As for keyboard mappings...I was always an ESDF person and they keep defaulting keys to WASD. Why ESDF? I find I get a wider range of access. Not to mention ESDF is the natural typing rested spot.