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It's a fairly old show, and there may be something else wrong with it, but I think we can all agree The Wire is at least much better than normal television, if not the "best show ever" as it has been described.
I've been teaching a class on it and watching it again for the second time and figured some of you all might want to pontificate....
To get things rolling, I'll say,
The Wire matches so well with this book you have to think Simon used it at least as inspiration. The author suggests that "possession of respect - and the credible threat of vengeance - is highly valued for shielding the ordinary person from the interpersonal violence of the street." The idea is that in inner city USA:
violence -> threatening, oppressive environment -> desire for safety -> "respect" -> aggressive, "chip on the shoulder" defense -> violence -> threatening and oppressive environment -> desire for safety -> "respect" -> ....
Sooo... if that is true then is this guy right when he says:
scary young black men -> scared white folks -> keep the brother man down -> scary young black men -> scared white folks -> ...?
Intertwined cycles.
Well, I have a feeling I'm either too drunk to post this, or this is going to have to go into the hidden politics forum, but hey, what the hell? Thoughts?
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I'm not sure Simon is making a statement about the streets in particular. The theme of the show is institutional disfunction - at their cores, the Baltimore PD, the Barksdale drug operation, the Union, the Baltimore School system and the Baltimore Sun were all the same...
Also, I am not sure what is wrong with the Wire. It is without a doubt the best television show ever made.
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Uncle Shags Wrote:violence -> threatening, oppressive environment -> desire for safety -> "respect" -> aggressive, "chip on the shoulder" defense -> violence -> threatening and oppressive environment -> desire for safety -> "respect" -> ....
Sooo... if that is true then is this guy right when he says:
scary young black men -> scared white folks -> keep the brother man down -> scary young black men -> scared white folks -> ...?
Intertwined cycles.
The phenomena you are referring to is also important in International Relations where it is called the "Security Dilemma," a term coined by the German scholar John H. Herz in his 1951 book Political Realism and Political Idealism. The idea is basically that a country feels threatened, it arms, its neighbors feel more threatened, they arm, cycle repeats until everyone is less secure.
The solution is ultimately arms controls agreed upon within international institutions. With your original problem, it's even easier, because governments (unlike international institutions) have the power to enforce weapon-control laws.
Your second loop, however, requires that people stop associating violence with race. It would be completely immoral to impose restrictions exclusively on young black men.
You don't win the Game of Death by dying first. The name is misleading.
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The spiral model or the deterrence model?
Bonus points for referencing something I studied during my useless degree.
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I have never understood why people like The Wire.
I am dissapointed you aren't doing your Monster class again. That is a class worth going to.
Vllad
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Why people like the Wire??? I can't understand people who DON'T like The Wire.
Amazing acting. Amazing dialogue. Realistic characters. Realistic view of how bureaucracy works.
With all of the run of the mill police procedurals, this was the only show that owned how real police departments operate. And how inner city public schools operate. And how newspapers operate. And how unions operate.
What I found interesting was hearing an interview with Simon where he said he was a die hard liberal. To me, this show makes the perfect case for libertarianism.
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Jakensama Wrote:I'm not sure Simon is making a statement about the streets in particular. The theme of the show is institutional disfunction - at their cores, the Baltimore PD, the Barksdale drug operation, the Union, the Baltimore School system and the Baltimore Sun were all the same... You're right, there is also the cycle of structural factors that contribute to inner city inequality and interact with those other cycles. But I think Simon is talking about multiple levels of the issue, not just at an institutional level. Institutional factors and individual and group dynamics all interact. The code of the street, respect, and violence influences how the Barksdale crew and inner city residents operate. It's all about putting up a front so others don't think you're weak. Omar is so respected (feared) he leans against a building and packages drop from the sky. "Oh shit, it's Omar! Just give him your shit!"
Watching the show the second time after reading Anderson's book it became really clear he used it and "The Code" as a resource in his writing. Themes, vocabulary, characters, theory, etc are pulled almost directly from the book. For example, how many times does Omar say, "A man's got to have a code"? And what happened to D'Angelo when he shows weakness and doesn't follow the code? Bunny asks the classroom full of corner kids why they have to beat up their lieutenants when they get out of line. "Because people are watching." I like the idea because for me it helps explain why the violence and aggression are so much a part of the culture.
Chain Wrote:With your original problem, it's even easier, because governments (unlike international institutions) have the power to enforce weapon-control laws.
Your second loop, however, requires that people stop associating violence with race. It would be completely immoral to impose restrictions exclusively on young black men. I like your comparison to international arms escalation. Although, I'd say arms control in this country isn't exactly an easy proposition.
Yes, the second loop is immoral, but unfortunately it's reality, and as long as inner city inequality stays where it's at it's not going anywhere.
Vllad, I couldn't do the monster course back to back semesters. I maybe could have stuck with the topic and approached it from a different angle, but I wasn't sure how much new material I could come up with and also wanted to try something different. Plus my wife pushed me hard because she plans on taking my material and teaching a course on The Wire on her own some day. If I were to do it again in the fall I'd do monsters again. But I may be getting a real job soon. I'll know in a few weeks.
Here's the page that shows my class. I'm the sixth one down:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.stlawu.edu/academics/experience/fyp/page/4228">http://www.stlawu.edu/academics/experie ... /page/4228</a><!-- m -->
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Uncle Shags Wrote:I like your comparison to international arms escalation. Although, I'd say arms control in this country isn't exactly an easy proposition.
Yes, the second loop is immoral, but unfortunately it's reality, and as long as inner city inequality stays where it's at it's not going anywhere.
I should have better specified - domestic arms control is easier in comparison to international arms control for the reason I stated. I didn't mean to imply that it was objectively easy, because that would do an injustice to the brave men and women who work towards that goal.
And I understand that the second loop is reality, I was more trying to explain why the obvious solution to the first two scenarios (force/pressure all sides into not arming) can not be applied to the young black man example. If we're extrapolating from the solutions to the first two than the solution to this third problem would seem to be implement rules that force young black men to be less intimidating - but such laws would be morally indefensible.
You don't win the Game of Death by dying first. The name is misleading.
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I suppose if I were to look for solutions it would be at the institutional/structural level. The culture isn't going to change until opportunities increase. All that force and pressure has gotten us so far is stats like this:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/raceinc.html">http://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/raceinc.html</a><!-- m -->
On a lighter note, the humor is another perk. "Let me ask you a question, where do you guys get those hats with the bills over the ears? I go into the stores and all I see are ones with bills in the front."
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Not sheet on the libertarian angle, the private organizations in the show are just as fucked up as the public ones.
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Yeah but the whole Bunny thing where he adopts the kid...and the idea that you will go crazy trying to change the system, and to stick to what you know is in your power to control.
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I've never watched it. My son tells I need to, but he also say's I might not like it. So hasn't been a priority for me.
Maul, the Bashing Shamie
"If you want to change the world, be that change."
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It probably is harder to get into for you greyhairs due to the excessive use of vernacular..
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I loved the Wire series. Simon developed a story arc based off of real people and events. He hollywooded it a bit but it still left a fairly realistic story that asked a lot of good questions about our society. I think the turn off for some people is that it goes against what they think (or taught) is normal so it feels more fake than real. Not saying i'm from the streets or anything but I've seen some of the issues that the Wire touches on. Good show and definitely better than regular TV. While Simon's New Orleans series wasn't as engaging as the Wire, it still had the same flavor and he pointed out there as well some flaws with our society.
Simon is an interesting guy. I think he's got some "spot on" ideas about current journalism.
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Dharus Tyranus Wrote:Simon developed a story arc based off of real people and events. The Deacon from the show is an actual former Baltimore gangster named Melvin Williams. Simon apparently based much of Avon on him and he acted as a consultant throughout. One of my students is from Baltimore and he said Carcetti and his run for office was based on a white Baltimore mayor, Martin O'Malley.
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Yep, and Simon used to work the assignment desk at the Baltimore Sun so all of that is based off his experiences, particularly the editor in chief.
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It may be based on real characters but the Wire is not based on reality at all. Not in a broad sense.
It is about as real as CSI is. Which is not much at all.
Vllad
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Vllad Wrote:It may be based on real characters but the Wire is not based on reality at all. Not in a broad sense.
It is about as real as CSI is. Which is not much at all. I will resist, but come on... Throwing around CSI comparisons like that are fighting words!
How is it not realistic?
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The only realistic idea that the Wire was able to protray is crooks are basically idiots. It is true that in general many crooks do rely on things like television to give them idea's on how they should commit a crime. Since TV isn't real this usually ends up in stupid decisions. Typically this is a police opinion, they are smarter then crooks and in my industry we deal with this very concept on a daily basis. Crooks get themselves caught more then law enforcement does the work to catch them.
Ironically the Wire contributes to that same problem.
Police departments in the area's I am intemently familiar with, Memphis, Los Angeles, Washington and Buffalo certainly don't work in any fashion like that Baltimore department does in the TV show. The Wire takes a very cynical and totally unrealistic view of political organizations up to and including the media.
Their protrayal of those organizations are not only not accurate but wholely exagerated.
If you are going to portray being a real department then you would see just how much a department does rely on independant contracters to solve many types of crimes. Budget cuts don't lead "Hamsterdan" experiments or officers framing each other. They lead to greater contracter involvement and streamlined processes.
I could be totally wrong and Baltimore is just totally fucked up beyond help. It is also possible that Baltimore doesn't know crap about good police work.
I don't know anything about Baltimore. I think it is more likely that the show is written for dramatic and gritty purposes taking advantage of the HBO format they were afforded.
Let me just say that the Wire doesn't represent any form of reality I have seen and it is offensive to many law enforcement individuals that I know personally.
The Wire's claim that they protrayed reality is as much of a slogan as Wheaties "It's the the breakfast of champions". I am sure you can find a champion somewhere that ate Wheaties at some time in his/her life.
Vllad
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Being based on real events and being realistic are to different things. Its obvious that the Wire was hollywooded up but it doesnt change some of the minor details that are based on facts. Simon actually had one of the officers on his writting staff but that doesn't mean he was creating a documentry on Baltimore PD. The Wire isn't a documentry but a drama show that 'should' make you think about issues that plague the US. Public schools failing inner city kids. The war on drugs being a joke. Labor Unions aren't good anymore nor do we build stuff in this country. Politics, government, and the numbers game they play to win elections or get more funding. The decline of real journalism. While some of it is exaggerated, it is done so to make people stop and think.
Watching a CSI show about some serial rapist who uses a baseball bat to his victims in gory detail on regular cable, doesn't make anyone think but turns them into a Nancy Grace seeing killers around every corner. It doesn't compare at all.
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Hamsterdam and the whole Jumping the Shark Mcnulty crap in the 5th season are not particularly believable, but the politics of the police office (and Baltimore PD) are spot on.
The show explains why most cops are terrible people, even getting into an institution with good intention eventually grinds you down. Not to mention that a good deal of the political shit going on in the police department was based on incidents in Baltimore too. If you really think that cops, especially at the high levels when it becomes a political job, are beyond blackmail or juking stats then you look at law enforcement with some pretty rose tinted glasses.
And the Newsdesk reporting is pretty accurate from many people interviewed who worked in newspapers, especially in their declining days recently. Thats not surprising since Simon worked for the damn sun.
The union and inner city school portions have been equally lauded.
Really, if you look at this as a police show or even remotely similar to CSI then you missed the entire point.
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Jakensama Wrote:The show explains why most cops are terrible people, even getting into an institution with good intention eventually grinds you down.
This statement is so out of line that I would say your bigotry has skewed your view on how cops really are. I can understand why you would be a fan of a show like the wire since it paints cops in a way that agrees with you. That still doesn't make it real.
Any institution can wear you down, even transportation so I don't see how that is even relevant. Wearing down in an individual event not an institutional event.
Jakensama Wrote:Really, if you look at this as a police show or even remotely similar to CSI then you missed the entire point.
Possibly. However I don't need to get the point to know The Wire is not any more real then CSI is. I didn't say the show's were similiar. I said they both contain the same amount of realism.
I think how most people get fooled is just because you make something look real doesn't mean it is.
Dharus,
You don't need a documentory to show realism. Their are many docudrama's that protray reality.
Addressing political topics in a drama doesn't make the drama real. "All in the Family" dealt with many political issues of its day but that doesn't mean the show real.
Again I didn't say CSI and The Wire are similiar shows, I said they both contain the same amount of realism.
The fans of The Wire call the show the greatest ever and while I totally disagree I have no problem with that. However the primary reason people feel that way is because so many fan's laud over its realism. That just isn't true. To me this is like fans of CSI coming here saying CSI is the greatest show ever because of its realism.
If you are going to like a show at least people should like it for the right reasons otherwise it just cheapens their opinion.
Vllad
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C'mon guys layoff Vllad...police procedurals are VERY realistic. Case in point:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8qgehH3kEQ[/youtube]
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If only McNulty could solve crimes like the wiz Caruso:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sarYH0z948[/youtube]
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Vllad, I think you're looking at one side of the issue and reacting to it. The thing that makes The Wire realistic is that it shows multiple sides of these issues. The good, the bad and everything in between.
As far as the view of police? There are many good cops on this show. And many shitty ones. And it places them inside a police force that is also both good and bad and forces them to make impossible decisions.
I think it does this with all the issues and social problems it deals with. Back room politics, street culture, race, the drug war, inner city education, journalism, unions, poverty, money in politics, Comstat (crime statistics), testing in schools, drug organizations, etc. What other show is realistic enough to paint a picture of those issues while trying to show both sides of the story? Sure, sometimes it may be lopsided and play favorites, but at least both sides (or many sides) are there.
Was Bunny's Hamsterdam experiment unrealistic? Probably. But does it show what a 30 year vet about to retire might think when he looks back on his career dealing with the failed drug war? I bet you a dollar.
And I can't believe you're trying to deny police corruption isn't real. Here's a story for you:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.villagevoice.com/2012-03-07/news/the-nypd-tapes-confirmed/">http://www.villagevoice.com/2012-03-07/ ... confirmed/</a><!-- m -->
Does that mean all cops and police departments are corrupt? Nope. But is it a problem? Hell yes!
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