Guild based vs faction based

[Snowreap]

I think it really depends on the faction.

if Bob and Jim are both exalted with the Dwarves, and Bob kills Jim in a dwarf town, then Bob's dwarf reputation may go down, since the dwarves don't like that kind of thing. Jim's reputation might go down too, since nobody likes a loser.

if Bob and Jim are both exalted with the Orcs, and Bob kills Jim in an orc camp, then Bob's orc reputation may go up, since Bob has clearly demonstrated his superiority over Jim in combat.

-ken

[Hoofhurr]

Yeah I'm not in favor of declarations either (you make a choice as you make your character practically). Still I'm worried that while this sounds fun to create, once players align themselves with a faction and do everything they can to move that faction forward, aren't all the choices they make sort of defaulted? Where are the difficult and interesting choices players have to make? Where are the trade-offs 3-4 weeks into the game?

As a player making a character you decide before you take your first action which faction you want to be a part of. If that's going to be important to the game how do you make it interesting to sometimes have to make choices against what you personally decided early on?

[Vllad]

Yeah I'm not in favor of declarations either. Still I'm worried that while this sounds fun to create, once players align themselves with a faction and do everything they can to move that faction forward, aren't all the choices they make sort of defaulted? Where are the difficult and interesting choices players have to make? Where are the trade-offs 3-4 weeks into the game?

It is limiting if their are only 20 factions. We are talking about a 1000 factions. Plus alligning yourself to man made factions like guilds.

The idea of this type of game is to try and be part of the evolving world. The world evolves with out you but you have some say so in how it evolves.

What is the point of faction I guess is what you are asking.


The end result of faction is the following:

*To get the faction to do your bidding (attacking your PC enemies, attacking other NPC factions that are aligned with your PC enemies)

*To use the faction to gain rewards (money, items, quest rewards, skills)

*To use the faction to further your personal or guilds advancement (building castles, resourses, taking over lands, participating in large wars)


With so many factions (as one is destroyed the game replaces them with new ones potentially) the game isn't about just alligning yourself with a single faction. It is possibly using multiple factions for advancement. You may be so inclined to start a civil war etc.

With the shift from players dictating the changes in worlds like Shadowbane and Planetside to the NPC's doing it this make the MMO more like a rollercoaster ride rather then pushing a cart. You create an enviorment where people take part in PVP as part of an NPC team instead of trying to drive the PVP team.



Vllad

[Hoofhurr]

I like that line of reasoning. What we see naturally though as a game evolves is that people abandon small factions in favor of larger factions because of the level of influence players have with larger factions. We would have to have some mechanic that preserves the existence of smaller factions and keeps them relevant to the game. I suppose having a set number of NPC factions means that these factions would never be completely abandoned because their assured presence via coding would always have some impact on the larger strategy. We would just have to make sure that no matter how far the game progresses the smaller factions wouldn't become entirely irrelevant.

[Slamz]

Still I'm worried that while this sounds fun to create, once players align themselves with a faction and do everything they can to move that faction forward, aren't all the choices they make sort of defaulted? Where are the difficult and interesting choices players have to make? Where are the trade-offs 3-4 weeks into the game?

I would think the interesting choices would be of a battlefield/strategic nature. Or if your faction is doing poorly, you may start to think about jumping ship, or perhaps there's a way to influence an alliance between two factions to work together against a bigger faction.

Basically I foresee the endgame being of a strategic nature.

Although there may also be room for a purely peaceful existence in the interior of a large, powerful faction -- assuming we could think of something interesting for them to do. Or to stay small and work as robber barons or mercenaries.



Although perhaps every faction has a particular goal in mind, and how well they're doing can cause some sort of dramatic impact.

Perhaps the Green Humans have strict ecological guidelines that prohibit mining in much of the world. Under their rule, weapon and armor crafting suffers and as they claim the last part of the map that has mithril in it, there is simply no more mithril mining happening anywhere in the world. If you're a cloth magic user, you love this faction and think that shutting down mithril mines is the best thing ever.

Whereas orcs have more of an "anything goes" policy, which can include getting mugged by a bigger orc in broad daylight.

You may simply get fed up with your faction and want to side with another, or go off and make your own.

[Vllad]

I like that line of reasoning. What we see naturally though as a game evolves is that people abandon small factions in favor of larger factions because of the level of influence players have with larger factions. We would have to have some mechanic that preserves the existence of smaller factions and keeps them relevant to the game. I suppose having a set number of NPC factions means that these factions would never be completely abandoned because their assured presence via coding would always have some impact on the larger strategy. We would just have to make sure that no matter how far the game progresses the smaller factions wouldn't become entirely irrelevant.

Exactly.

If Purge destroys Vampire faction1 in one part of the world a new Lich faction8 community is born somewhere else.

We can control it as long as while we allow players to become intertwined into the enviorement unlike Shadowbane they don't get to dictate it the enviorment
NPC's have the zones of control players only add to it not actually control it.

This way no matter how big a guild is they are always threatened by other factions they are alligned with.

Purge has to answer to Archangel Micheal. While we appease him we are allowed to live in his lands. The other guilds don't neccessarily have to defeat Purge as much as Archangel Micheal.

As long as we make it so if Archangel Micheal is defeated Purge can pick up and move somewhere else then the enviorment is secured.


Vllad

[Slamz]

What we see naturally though as a game evolves is that people abandon small factions in favor of larger factions because of the level of influence players have with larger factions

I'm not sure about that.

Joining a large faction may simply mean you are competing with a lot of other players for internal faction influence. It will probably become pretty tempting to set out into the wilderness and side up with the Tree People of the Elk Woods because you'd be a big fish in a small pond, whereas joining the Horde makes you a big fish in an ocean of big fish.




But it's also possible that factions are actually composed of factions. Orcs fight the Tree People of the Elk Woods and win, but the Tree People become vassals rather than being wiped out. They can still fight and grow in the name of the Orcs, but they're also still doing it in the name of the Tree People, as if they were a particular orc batallion.

And when the day comes when they get powerful enough or the other Orcs get weak enough, the Tree People may simply declare their independence and start a new war right in the heart of Orc country (perhaps after reaching an agreement with several other vassal states to do the same).

[Hoofhurr]

Interesting. I guess I was basing my statement off of Vallon Zek where as it became apparent that the darkies were going to decimate every other team the lighties all united and made it a 2 faction game. Clearly a lot of people were willing to abandon influence in favor of success. Human psychology dictates that success is a strong motivating factor but so is ego. I've simply noticed in games that success usually wins. You have to have a mechanic that preserves the little guy and doesn't make him irrelevant.

[Slamz]

VZ also didn't have any sense of factional identity to it. I was a troll but I had no actual investment in (or influence over) troll affairs. The main question in EQ was whether you had enough friends and firepower to peacefully farm up some XP and loot somewhere. With the dark team being the most powerful, the other teams had no identity or investment to say "fight for elf power!" so they had no reason not to unite.


I think if players had a bigger investment in their faction, you'd see far more cautious and temporary alliances form up. When the dwarfs move in and claim a prime resource, the elfs might applaud the victory over the forces of darkness but if the dwarfs don't give back some love, it'll be war.

[Hoofhurr]

See I disagree there. I was very invested in being a darky for no good reason other than anyone not a darky could kill me and take my shit. I remember being very invested in my faction, a feeling bordering on pride actually. When we were taking down named mobs without bards or rangers it was a serious point of pride. Additionally, it was a point of pride that others had to team up to contend with us. These are elements we would want to encourage in a Heaven'ell.

[Slamz]

Maybe a question of semantics -- you enjoyed the challenges and accomplishments of your team, but you didn't have any investment in the Dark Elves of Nektulos Forest or the Trolls of Innothule Swamp or the Ogres of Oggok. Your "faction" was basically the players and the class limitations rather than the NPCs and your home towns.

So it was easy for the lighties to combine forces. Elves didn't have any particular investment in their city or their NPCs so it was no problem to join forces with the dwarves, gnomes and humans -- they had no reason or ability to fight for the expansion of THEIR team (elves).


With a dynamic game world and living factions, they might have had a lot more incentive to stay focused on who they were (elves) rather than losing that identity completely and becoming "lighties".