Pitfalls from past games

[Dustie]

..Again, just a list of items that I'll try to keep updated as we will do with "best things from past games."

I think this thread should, at a minimum encompass everything that ever made us quit a game. It should probably also contain everything that ever made us say "what a waste of time", or "what idiot thought of this?"

A. Speed imbalances ala POBS

B. Massive modifiers ala SWG commandos, doctors

C. Chain mez, roots, etc

Losing control of your character. Stuns, Mind Controls, Knockdowns etc.

D. Empty Player Cities ala SWG

E. Pin hole sized warping ala EVE

F. Repetitive Grind ala POBS port grinding, WoW faction grind

G. Handle Instancing Well (if any)

I would have to say instancing pvp is a huge mistake, unless its a battle like PotBS that others have a window to join.


The mass crowd control dated to DAOC, where the healers for midgard could lock down large numbers of people and let their team pain train them 1 by 1

Even though I enjoyed it, the spells that took your away control of your character control in Eq really pissed people off....enchant player, blind, fear

Finally I disagree somewhat on the pvp and instants. While in general it is true their are some exceptions.

Lets say in our faction based scenario that some large Angel Lord was going to attack some Lich King. We are talking about an NPC fight of massive proportions. 500 NPC's vs 500 NPC's.

If PC's wanted to participate and the battle was pre-determined to go off at 10 PM EST on a Friday. I don't see anything wrong with instancing that off and locking off the area that the battle is going to occur.

Their was nothing wrong with the Port Battles in POBS. The part that was wrong with it is that it limited who could participate.

What was wrong with POBS was open sea battles where instanced.

I don't think you can create a massive evolving world with out instance world changin events. You can't have passive things getting in the way of large battles. The lag can't be dealt with then. i.e., we can't have some stray random guy running into the battle who didn't know it was going on. He is helping create lag.

It will be especially important if you open up large faction warfare to all who want to come. At the very least open it up to very large amounts of PC's.

H. Non-meaningful or extended Downtime

Long down time between encounters.

I.

*Lack of friendly fire. Nothing polices a community better then the people who play the game.

J.

*Classes

K.

*Gear overload, Any game where the gear produces more then 20% of the outcome of a game is a problem. Mudflation rules and creates to large of gap between the haves and have nots.

L. Getting the Death Penalty Right

Which ties in to my other pitfall which is quick pvp battles, instant or near instant kill abilities are gay, 1v1 pvp fights should last minutes not seconds, and large scale pvp should last an hour or more.

I used to agree with that but I don't anymore, or rather, I think it depends on how you design the game. (I discussed this in some other thread...PvP Game Design I think?)

A 1v1 FPS fight that lasted 60 seconds would be pretty terrible. You'd both just be shooting the hell out of each other trying to whittle down the other guy's health faster than he whittled down yours.

In WAR/WOW, I agree that fights need to last for a decent amount of time because that's where the "skill" comes from -- activating a variety of skills in a strategic fashion, plus maneuvering. Same thing for POTBS. In an FPS, though, the skill is in who aims and shoots faster/better and it's best if fights resolves themselves very quickly, so that the player with the best awareness and quick aiming gets rewarded for that part of his skill.


So really, fight duration depends on fight mechanics. The important thing is that they "require skill". Then you have to decide what skills you want the fights to emphasize. Long, slow fights emphasize strategy and maneuvers. Quick fights emphasize surprise and reaction.

M. Poor Economic System and Crafter unemployment

I feel that "Poor Economic Systems" is a pitfall that should be on the list.

WOW, quite possibly, had the worst systems. Gathering was boring and tedius. Crafting was just as boring, and was un-rewarding to boot. Items could always be fully repaired and therefore, nothing ever left the game until a player deleted it because he got better. There was no system in place to keep crafters employed.

I actually think SWG got the gathering/crafting the most correct of all the MMOs I've played. I posted the main points in the other thread about Best Features of other games.

N. Safezone management

in a pvp game, safe zones are a pitfall. they allow trash talkers a safe haven to inundate others with spam without consequences. before luclin, pvp was at its greatest on SZ, you never knew who might be near your camp out/bind point. I played a DE cleric and used to bind near my guildleader. if some newt wanted to bind camp me, they wouldnt be able to do it for long before their faction (if it was the same as mine) would drop and the guild NPCs would tear them a new one.

[Hoofhurr]

This one might fail from tsunami-like proportions.

[Diggles]

I would have to say instancing pvp is a huge mistake, unless its a battle like PotBS that others have a window to join.

The mass crowd control dated to DAOC, where the healers for midgard could lock down large numbers of people and let their team pain train them 1 by 1

Even though I enjoyed it, the spells that took your away control of your character control in Eq really pissed people off....enchant player, blind, fear

[Thudz]

Losing control of your character. Stuns, Mind Controls, Knockdowns etc.
Long down time between encounters.

[Vllad]

*Speed imbalance.
*Mez, stuns, fear and anything else the prevents a player from participating in a battle.
*Lack of friendly fire. Nothing polices a community better then the people who play the game.
*Classes
*Gear overload, Any game where the gear produces more then 20% of the outcome of a game is a problem. Mudflation rules and creates to large of gap between the haves and have nots.


Finally I disagree somewhat on the pvp and instants. While in general it is true their are some exceptions.

Lets say in our faction based scenario that some large Angel Lord was going to attack some Lich King. We are talking about an NPC fight of massive proportions. 500 NPC's vs 500 NPC's.

If PC's wanted to participate and the battle was pre-determined to go off at 10 PM EST on a Friday. I don't see anything wrong with instancing that off and locking off the area that the battle is going to occur.

Their was nothing wrong with the Port Battles in POBS. The part that was wrong with it is that it limited who could participate.

What was wrong with POBS was open sea battles where instanced.

I don't think you can create a massive evolving world with out instance world changin events. You can't have passive things getting in the way of large battles. The lag can't be dealt with then. i.e., we can't have some stray random guy running into the battle who didn't know it was going on. He is helping create lag.

It will be especially important if you open up large faction warfare to all who want to come. At the very least open it up to very large amounts of PC's.


Vllad

[Vllad]

Agro management in most games are completely dumb. If you get rid of the class based game and remove the idea of "Tanks" their is no need for the classical agro management part.

Their are far better ways for NPC's to manage their hate.


Vllad

[Alio]

Story / Lore / Writing

[Ulfen]

Zero or little consequence in dieing. Having a debuff or losing some armor durability are blubie consequences of dieing. There should be real consequences, losing xp, gear, coin etc. Which ties in to my other pitfall which is quick pvp battles, instant or near instant kill abilities are gay, 1v1 pvp fights should last minutes not seconds, and large scale pvp should last an hour or more.

[Slamz]

Which ties in to my other pitfall which is quick pvp battles, instant or near instant kill abilities are gay, 1v1 pvp fights should last minutes not seconds, and large scale pvp should last an hour or more.

I used to agree with that but I don't anymore, or rather, I think it depends on how you design the game. (I discussed this in some other thread...PvP Game Design I think?)

A 1v1 FPS fight that lasted 60 seconds would be pretty terrible. You'd both just be shooting the hell out of each other trying to whittle down the other guy's health faster than he whittled down yours.

In WAR/WOW, I agree that fights need to last for a decent amount of time because that's where the "skill" comes from -- activating a variety of skills in a strategic fashion, plus maneuvering. Same thing for POTBS. In an FPS, though, the skill is in who aims and shoots faster/better and it's best if fights resolves themselves very quickly, so that the player with the best awareness and quick aiming gets rewarded for that part of his skill.


So really, fight duration depends on fight mechanics. The important thing is that they "require skill". Then you have to decide what skills you want the fights to emphasize. Long, slow fights emphasize strategy and maneuvers. Quick fights emphasize surprise and reaction.

[Ulfen]

So really, fight duration depends on fight mechanics. The important thing is that they "require skill". Then you have to decide what skills you want the fights to emphasize. Long, slow fights emphasize strategy and maneuvers. Quick fights emphasize surprise and reaction.

Yeah, this is exactly what I meant. I guess I just neglected to say it. I prefer the long slow fights (for MMOs). If I have 50 spells or skills I want the fight to last long enough for me to be able to choose which I want to use and have the result of the fight determined "mostly" by my choices vs. my opponents. The only way you should be able to be instantly (or nearly) killed in PvP in an MMO is if you are standing around AFK or whatever.

[Zouji]

Zero or little consequence in dieing. Having a debuff or losing some armor durability are blubie consequences of dieing. There should be real consequences, losing xp, gear, coin etc. Which ties in to my other pitfall which is quick pvp battles, instant or near instant kill abilities are gay, 1v1 pvp fights should last minutes not seconds, and large scale pvp should last an hour or more.

I enjoyed the death penalty in UO. If you died then you dropped everything that was on you on to your corpse. This included armor, weapons, gold, everything. This forced the player and the game economy to not worry to much about any single item. Everyone ran around in GM crafted armor and weapons. Magic items were rarely used. The only really useful magical item was a silver weapon since they did double damage against undead.

You could potentially get back to your body before it decade. But, someone could still loot it at the expense of becoming attackable to everyone. This forced you to fight smartly and to also have back up outfits of armor and weapons. This was the ultimate way to negate uber items. Plus everything had a durability associated with it. If it went past its durability then it was no longer usable. You had to take it to a smith and have them repair it. Based on the skill level of the smith item may or may not lose some of its permanent durability. If you used a item continuously though it would eventually get to where it only takes a few hits to break it or it might even break permanently.

[1000xZero]

If you have teams, you have to hard code them. No x-teaming with invulnerability.

Chain Disable is definitely high on the list.

I do not think you should lose everything in PvP. It will drive huge amounts of people away. There should be a cost but not one that high. That is one of the reasons I do not play Eve anymore. I got tired of being ganked by people in High Sec Space that had such a huge head start over me in time.

We have to find a way to allow achievement but not have equipment creep that makes entry costs not worth while for newcomers.

[Diggles]

If you have teams, you have to hard code them. No x-teaming with invulnerability.

Chain Disable is definitely high on the list.

I do not think you should lose everything in PvP. It will drive huge amounts of people away. There should be a cost but not one that high. That is one of the reasons I do not play Eve anymore. I got tired of being ganked by people in High Sec Space that had such a huge head start over me in time.

We have to find a way to allow achievement but not have equipment creep that makes entry costs not worth while for newcomers.

You are basing that on how hard it is to come by equipment in fantasy MMO's (ie...camping some drop in EQ for weeks to get a magical item).

What if I am part of a faction/join a kingdom and the armor they supply me is non magical and based on my rank. No matter how many times I die, if I am a 'squire' rank, I will be given Lamellar armor and my class/skill weapons.

This is all of course assuming your kingdom controls the means to get the resources to make these items and the crafters to construct them.

If all items have durability and dont last that long, full item drops are fine.

A master swordsman is not going to waste his time looting noobie bodies of gear when he could earn more money collecting sclaps and bounties on fugitives.

However a noobie can wait for a battle and sneak in and steal from bodies, carry as much as possible and sell it at an armor shop.

[Ulfen]

Crafting and resource gathering. Probably the most boring and tedious aspect of any MMO. Even being grouped with somebody gathering resources is no fun. They may as well add stamp collecting and watching grass grow to MMOs as well.

[Diggles]

Crafting and resource gathering. Probably the most boring and tedious aspect of any MMO. Even being grouped with somebody gathering resources is no fun. They may as well add stamp collecting and watching grass grow to MMOs as well.

Only because you've never had a system where it was enjoyable.

You're only basing your opinion off WoW clone system. Node appear in predefined locations, you get 3 pieces out of node.

Not randomly generated dungeons that have the possiblity to be turned into mines. Where resources can sometimes last and week and fuel large amount of players. Where there is a huge reason to fight over the said resources, because they are the only way to get items made.

Not setting up plantations and having to protect them from invaders, or likewise raiding another terrotories resources.

Expand the scope of your thinking.

Eve had 'ninja miners' that sneak into enemy territory late at nite to get minerals that normally wouldnt be available to them. They will sometimes bring escorts our send in scouts first to see if the systems are clear. Its bad news when they're caught!

[grizzle]

Crafting and resource gathering. Probably the most boring and tedious aspect of any MMO. Even being grouped with somebody gathering resources is no fun. They may as well add stamp collecting and watching grass grow to MMOs as well.

Only because you've never had a system where it was enjoyable.
...

Expand the scope of your thinking.

Not at all. Not everyone enjoys what you enjoy, Diggles. I, and it sounds like Ulfen, and many others, simply do not enjoy gathering and crafting. It has nothing to do with expanding the scope of thinking, or how it is implemented, or any other reason you come up with. It has to do with the fact that we Do Not Like Gathering And Crafting. Period.

I want to fight. I want to kill enemy players. I want to alter the landscape of the game world through strategic battles. And I want to be rewarded with loot that I can use.

[Diggles]

Explain exactly how grinding the same computer controlled mobs over and over waiting for a % chance drop STRATEGIC? compared to fighting over and controlling resources

gathering does not mean you clicking on a node. It can mean you and your hired minions sitting on a control point, flying your guild/nations banner, while they extract the ore to your capital or guild city along trade routes. Caravans are automatically formed and can be attacked by enemies. You can hire escorts to guard your caravans.

[Ulfen]

Explain exactly how grinding the same computer controlled mobs over and over waiting for a % chance drop STRATEGIC? compared to fighting over and controlling resources

gathering does not mean you clicking on a node. It can mean you and your hired minions sitting on a control point, flying your guild/nations banner, while they extract the ore to your capital or guild city along trade routes. Caravans are automatically formed and can be attacked by enemies. You can hire escorts to guard your caravans.

If you can have your minions doing the gathering while you go off and do something that is actually fun I wouldn't mind it =p

[grizzle]

Explain exactly how grinding the same computer controlled mobs over and over waiting for a % chance drop STRATEGIC? compared to fighting over and controlling resources

gathering does not mean you clicking on a node. It can mean you and your hired minions sitting on a control point, flying your guild/nations banner, while they extract the ore to your capital or guild city along trade routes. Caravans are automatically formed and can be attacked by enemies. You can hire escorts to guard your caravans.

I didn't say grinding the same mobs was strategic.

Guarding a resource node isn't fun. There might be a fight, there may not be one. Sitting around waiting for one isn't fun. Trading/swapping/rotating flags throughout a territory with the enemy isn't fun. And the only reason to do it is to give loot to crafters. Crafting, gathering, and guarding resources for gatherers and crafters is not fun.

[Jakensama]

I enjoyed the death penalty in UO.

Do you also enjoy prison showers?

[Veraphim]

I feel that "Poor Economic Systems" is a pitfall that should be on the list.

WOW, quite possibly, had the worst systems. Gathering was boring and tedius. Crafting was just as boring, and was un-rewarding to boot. Items could always be fully repaired and therefore, nothing ever left the game until a player deleted it because he got better. There was no system in place to keep crafters employed.

I actually think SWG got the gathering/crafting the most correct of all the MMOs I've played. I posted the main points in the other thread about Best Features of other games.

[Staracker]

in a pvp game, safe zones are a pitfall. they allow trash talkers a safe haven to inundate others with spam without consequences. before luclin, pvp was at its greatest on SZ, you never knew who might be near your camp out/bind point. I played a DE cleric and used to bind near my guildleader. if some newt wanted to bind camp me, they wouldnt be able to do it for long before their faction (if it was the same as mine) would drop and the guild NPCs would tear them a new one.