The investment game, Inflation and the cost of goods.

[Hoofhurr]

It's interesting that jobs or education didn't make it into the lists. What about sense of purpose?

[Jakensama]

You have to kind of rank needs as some are more basic than others for happiness. Abraham Maslow laid out below which is basic psychology and while not set in stone gives an idea of happiness. You could probably fit quality of life measurements in here or in a similar wy.

   

[Vanraw]

You have to kind of rank needs as some are more basic than others for happiness. Abraham Maslow laid out below which is basic psychology and while not set in stone gives an idea of happiness. You could probably fit quality of life measurements in here or in a similar wy.

[ATTACHMENT NOT FOUND]

Right. I would argue that every single one of the Maslow pyramid levels is obtainable without reaching what most Americans define as economically successful.

[Hoofhurr]

I won't respond to that unless you make at least 75k.

[Jakensama]

I dunno for a bunch of computer nerds whats the income minimum for sexual intimacy

[Slamz]

"Quality of life" probably isn't the right choice of words for this discussion anyway. I blame Maul. If we're talking about things you can invest in that have lasting, intrinsic value (and can therefore potentially be traded again for something else of value regardless of what happens to the world's economy) then "space" is still a top vote of mine. Similarly, "gold" isn't directly going to improve your quality of life, but I think a case can be made for saying it's a lasting investment with intrinsic value. People like shiny things and it has value in manufacturing.

Whereas investing in the stock market, while it can get you some potentially huge wins, is still an investment into something of dubious lasting value -- the stock is really only worth what other people are willing to pay for it. Unlike real estate and gold, it has no intrinsic value.

Even against what seems like a big secure company, you never know when some big scandal may hit, the company leadership was found to be cooking the books, etc, and suddenly it's the next Enron:

[Hoofhurr]

Well it's all a house of cards isn't it? A grain of wheat only has intrinsic value if you can mill it and bake it into bread. Gold isn't worth shit unless you can smelt it and stick it on your tooth. So Maull's relativism (I'm giving him credit for purposes of this argument) still rings true. The value of an item is surely connected to where you currently are on the social ladder just as the value of an item changes based on where society is on the civilization ladder.

To give this all a buddhist spin you could make the argument that at some point in space/time a share of enron stock is going to be worth just as much to someone as a sharp rock might be to that same person at a different point in space/time.

So when considering an investment and the value of a thing you have to be ready to consider the likelihood of a total meltdown of the framework that gives the thing its perceived value. I might even make the argument that nothing has intrinsic value. It's all contextually dependent.

Let's divvy up economies as we know them:
Credit Economy
Monetary Currency Economy
Mineral Based Currency Economy
Barter Economy
Sustenance Based Economy
Survival Based

As you move up or down in these economies what something is worth changes dramatically it seems to me.

[Slamz]

Well it's all a house of cards isn't it? A grain of wheat only has intrinsic value if you can mill it and bake it into bread. Gold isn't worth shit unless you can smelt it and stick it on your tooth. So Maull's relativism (I'm giving him credit for purposes of this argument) still rings true.

Relativism yes but my point with intrinsic value is that if nobody will buy your stock, it's literally worth nothing. If nobody will buy your farm land, you can still live on it and grow wheat and if nobody will buy your wheat, you can still eat it. Those things, at least, have some built-in value in that you can use them in your life.

Gold is more arguable but gold is like a stock with a long history of being valued by people. It doesn't seem to take a very high level of civilization before gold starts to become valuable again.

Come to think of it, the human preoccupation with gold and jewels is kind of strange. We're like giant magpies.


I guess we're really talking about investment for the purpose of making money versus investment for the purpose of having wealth without regard for the state of the economy.

Land is wealth. Food is wealth, albeit you probably wouldn't collect it. Gold, I would say, is wealth, at least as long as our magpie tendencies hold up.

Stock is money. Savings accounts are money. It's not wealth until you turn it into something that will maintain its value outside of the economy.

[Thudz]

Stock is money. Savings accounts are money. It's not wealth until you turn it into something that will maintain its value outside of the economy.

If we want to travel do this road of thought then I submit there is nothing more valuable than firearms and ammunition. With this everything else can be got.

[Jakensama]

Stock is money. Savings accounts are money. It's not wealth until you turn it into something that will maintain its value outside of the economy.

If we want to travel do this road of thought then I submit there is nothing more valuable than firearms and ammunition.

Control over people with firearms, you can get alot more done when you send other people to kill and plunder without having to risk it yourself.

Someone never learned the riddle of steel.

[Breand]

Come to think of it, the human preoccupation with gold and jewels is kind of strange. We're like giant magpies.

Call it a few thousands years of training women that their success is measured by landing a man who can provide them with the most wealth in the form of jewels. Women are still obssessed with them, and men being obssessed with women, buy them. I ask my wife at least once a month how many chopped off African hands she thinks went into getting her diamond engagement ring.

[Thudz]

If we want to travel do this road of thought then I submit there is nothing more valuable than firearms and ammunition.

Control over people with firearms, you can get alot more done when you send other people to kill and plunder without having to risk it yourself.

Someone never learned the riddle of steel.

You need bigger guns or nukes to control people who have guns.

[Jakensama]

Come to think of it, the human preoccupation with gold and jewels is kind of strange. We're like giant magpies.

Call it a few thousands years of training women that their success is measured by landing a man who can provide them with the most wealth in the form of jewels. Women are still obssessed with them, and men being obssessed with women, buy them. I ask my wife at least once a month how man chopped off African hands she thinks went into getting her diamond engagement ring.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ur2er-STls[/youtube]

I think it's silly too, especially since I just made payment #3.

[Jakensama]

You need bigger guns or nukes to control people who have guns.

Hitler controlled a lot of people with guns and he was an unstable meth addict.

[Slamz]

Yes but tank battalions and a Luftwaffe are a big investment with a lot of risk.

[Jakensama]

Yes but he didn't 'possess' those, he just possessed control over the people who had them.

[Thudz]

Yes but he didn't 'possess' those, he just possessed control over the people who had them.

And how did he lose his power? To people who had more and bigger weapons.

[Jakensama]

But the point remains, he never had the guns that were used, he possessed the people who used them.

[Thudz]

But the point remains, he never had the guns that were used, he possessed the people who used them.

One and the same in my eye. Life all boils down to who controls the best means to kill others.

[Breand]

I prefer killing them softly with my song.

[Vanraw]

You guys are completely destroying my philosophical musing thread! Where the hell is Deputy Dusty!! Or Sgt Hoof!

[Thudz]

You guys are completely destroying my philosophical musing thread! Where the hell is Deputy Dusty!! Or Sgt Hoof!

The way of the gun is a philosophy to many. Me included.

[amins]

To reply to the first set of questions on relitivity in real estate, one of the biggest problems is that people use the equity in thier estate to pay of debt and buy nice new 'shineys' (cars, boats, clothes/jewelery, vacations) instead of leveraging to purchase a new asset: IE, another house.

Here's what I did to make my first 1.5 million in Real Estate Holdings, and I'm starting the process all over again now that the market (housing) has plummeted...

Buy a condo, stick a tenant in it... wait 2-5 yrs (or until the market bounces up).

After a year, which is the normal time required on the west cost (cali/bc) to hold a property before flipping/leveraging, re-fi & buy a similar unit: In my case, i bought my second property (a house). You'll probably have to take a hit on insurance premiums because you want to over-extend (leverage) your debt ratio above the standard 70% (to 85 or 90%) in order to cover the down on the 2nd' property.

Once you have this set up, you're golden: Ride it to a top, sell the one, and just wait till the market retraces... It's not a fast strategy, but if you always rooted for the Turtle to beat the Hare, this strategy's for you.

The key, is finding the right investment tool that fits your needs: for me, it's +monthly cash flow (rent).

Another thing most people don't know about real estate is, like Option Trading (Stock Options), you can pay a premium for the RIGHT to buy a house on or before a specific date... in which case, if it's a bullish market or turning (like it is now & within the next 2 years), you can set out a couple housing options... as you near your point of exercising the option, you then post to sell the house (you own the right to it), in which you can then use the extreme leveraging of the option to rake in the difference between your premium, the ammount the house is (what the option price was), minus what you can sell it for.

Little to no work nor capital required... all paperwork.

So, yes its all relitive, but there are ways to use leveraging to get past the increase cost of buying/selling the same asset... just make sure those damn lawyers and insurance doods don't take all your profit!

~Rich Dad, Poor Dad. Great beginners series to investing, not specific focused, but conceptual. Good reads, all 3 of them.

[amins]

Ok, finished reading the rest of the posts...

One day, Energy won't be a problem because nations will be able to sustain thier consumption through sustainable technology: nuc, wind, solar, geothermal, tidal, & hydro... Everyone will just write credit spreads on a flatlining/channeling stock and be happy w/ thier premiums.

When that day arrives, the only things to invest in will be Real Estate, Genetics (we'll all want to live longer), and Technology (gotta get into outter space so we can consume other planets and have more real estate to invest in!).

So, what else is there to invest in today that still has huge growth posibilities... bio-medical, pharma (Health-Care), and technology.... I guess you could put R&D in there, but that's the same thought pattern you guys were using earlier about investing in IPO's...

Question though about wealth & the market....

If 'Markets' (stock, forex, futures, real estate, etc) need liquidity, which is the ratio between supply & demand?, wouldn't having an educated base of investors (ie, if all of america was educated on how to invest in the stock market: how to read charts and manage risk vs reward), wouldn't that be a better thing for the overall market?

I mean, there's only 3 ways a stock can go... that's it: Up, Down, Sideways.

As for wealth, health, & relivivity, I don't think enough people remember history nor care to 'look up' from thier daily life and see how other people are living outside of their own country...we consume to much as it is, but that's just the nature of the beast: development. I just wished the assholes w/ all the money would stop killing thier livestock (ie, working class), and move on to 'Emerging Markets'... they've made enough $$$.

Capitalism and Democracy will be the underlying processes of the globe, but it'll be governed through National Identity (Socialisstic, Communistic, etc)... I dont' think Capitalism is a fair judgement of Cultural Identity (or a nations voice) because its underlying value is based on Currency: Free Market.. right? Since currency is universal, wouldn't it be better to have your nations values not on $, but on the people who make $, which in and of itself is a form of currency: ie, labour.

Socio-Capitalism? What would even be a word to describe what the underlying values of America are?

Democratic? But tha's not an ~ism...

A friend once stated, if not Capitalism, what?

Ok, my rambles done, sorry for wasting your time!

[amins]

Wolverton Securities

Great for canadian based Energy (and mining) investments for small/mid-cap Businesses.

If you want/need a name, I can give you one: 52% ROI since June 07.

Read this neat article, might be an interesting read for those who are still new to investing in the market like myself:
1) <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.optionszone.com/market-commentary/market-analysis/2009/12/investing-tips-10-rules-for-successful-investing-part3.html">http://www.optionszone.com/market-comme ... part3.html</a><!-- m -->

2) <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.optionszone.com/trading-ideas/gallery/inflation-hedges.html">http://www.optionszone.com/trading-idea ... edges.html</a><!-- m -->

3) <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.optionszone.com/trading-ideas/gallery/when-to-exit-an-options-trade.html">http://www.optionszone.com/trading-idea ... trade.html</a><!-- m -->

anyhoot.