Stupid in America

[Diggles]

Again, I hate John Stossel but this was just a fucking right on the money piece about how much fail public schools are in america

Its VERY long, 45mins but well worth it.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx4pN-aiofw[/youtube]

[Jakensama]

My public school was great in high school.

Then again, the public school I would have had to go to in Georgia had metal detectors at the entrances so I suppose I was in the minority.

[Slamz]

The Belgian method is interesting. Each kid has a dollar amount attached to them and that money goes to whatever school they attend, rather than sending money to schools based on district and forcing kids to attend in their home district.

So if the school sucks, kids go elsewhere, taking their money with them and that school shuts down.


Sounds like the real problem is unions and monopolies preventing proper competition, including lobbying efforts to block voucher programs.

It would be great to see the country take the focus they're putting on health care and turn it to education.

[Moristans]

The Belgian method is interesting. Each kid has a dollar amount attached to them and that money goes to whatever school they attend, rather than sending money to schools based on district and forcing kids to attend in their home district.

So if the school sucks, kids go elsewhere, taking their money with them and that school shuts down.

I'll watch the video when I get home, but for the most part, public school funding isn't much different than what you described for Belgium. States, of course, determine how public schools are funded and I'm more familiar with California than other states. LAUSD get's so much money allocated per kid that goes to the school that the kid attends. If the kid changes school, or even ditches, the school loses money.

[Moristans]

Sounds like the real problem is unions and monopolies preventing proper competition, including lobbying efforts to block voucher programs.

It would be great to see the country take the focus they're putting on health care and turn it to education.

I'll get to this later.

[Breand]

For the record, I went to the 34th best high school in the U.S. according to U.S. News&World Report (I believe it was ranked 11th last year) and it was a NYC public school (with admission requirements).

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So while I agree most public school systems fail miserably, I did go to one that works QUITE well. It's about the administrators, teachers, and parents taking that extra step in seeing their children excel. And I would say keeping them small helps a lot, too.

[Diggles]

For the record, I went to the 34th best high school in the U.S. according to U.S. News&World Report (I believe it was ranked 11th last year) and it was a NYC public school (with admission requirements).

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.usnews.com/listings/high-schools/new_york/staten_island_technical_high_school">http://www.usnews.com/listings/high-sch ... igh_school</a><!-- m -->

So while I agree most public school systems fail miserably, I did go to one that works QUITE well. It's about the administrators, teachers, and parents taking that extra step in seeing their children excel. And I would say keeping them small helps a lot, too.

Yes and right now we have a system with NO choice about where you go. So if you are stuck with shitty incompetent teachers or admins, you're stuck with them. They used the example that only 2 of 88,000 NewYork public school teachers were fired last year. They used the corporate example of G.E. that fires the bottom 10% of their employees. Just imagine the news had NewYork decided to fire 8 THOUSAND teachers at once, that would be news on every single tv station, webpage and global news.

Sure you think you went to a good shool, this special compared 'good' american schools with average Belgium ones, they wooped our asses.

One point this special doesnt address specifically is the lack of discipline in school, which would be an entire different political issue. Schools are so afraid of getting sued they lose control of the kids. The examples of good school they showed, the kids are in uniforms and very much paying attention.

[Slamz]

How widespread are school voucher programs in the US?

I know there was a recent stink in D.C. about it. As I understand it, they did a 5 year trial of a voucher system and talks to renew it apparently broke down. People who have vouchers can continue to get them until they complete school but no new students are getting them, basically resulting in the end of the voucher program by attrition.

I don't think Maryland has such a program. Dustie? Does Maryland offer any sort of voucher system?

[Vanraw]

Iowa has a open enrollment policy where you can choose any school you want to send your kid too. There are some restrictions, like transportation is your responsibility if your not on the bus route. Also it doesn't let you move tax dollars to a private school. In general its a good program that does just what slamz pointed out. It allows the people to vote with their dollars by defining where they want their kid to go to, and thus moving those dollars to that school.

[Moristans]

I don't currently have access to the video so I don't know what Stossel is saying. I see a lot of misunderstanding in some of the comments though.

Remember, each state is responsible for how it's public education system is run. Like Maull said, some states allow open enrollment within districts so, theoretically, parents do have a choice regarding where their kids will attend. I can tell you though, choosing where your kid goes to school is not always a simple choice. I just had a kid enroll into my class at one of the worst failing schools in the state from one of the highest achieving schools in the state.

When you look at failing schools or districts, there isn't a silver bullet. You have to take into account too many factors.

Anyway, if Arne Duncan has his way, there will be lot's of changes coming.

Right now, my school will be the first high school in LAUSD to be reconstituted a la the Chicago model. That means everybody, from the assistant principals down to the janitors, will be given notice and will have to reapply for their jobs for next year and beyond. The idea is that if we boot everybody, we can then fill all the positions with highly qualified employees that will then work to turn this school around. There are a lot of people cheering this decision. For those of us who've worked our asses off trying to make this school function, in an environment where we can barely keep 80% of the teaching positions filled, it's a kick in the balls no matter how you slice it. In my 8 years here, I've already seen 4 principals, countless APs, and teacher turnover rate approaching 50% yearly.

I'd only one to see one thing happen. I'd love to see teachers and staff from all those highly successful schools flock to my ghetto school and prove to me that I suck at what I do. I really really want to see that happen, for the sake of all the kids at this school who deserve the best education they can get, and, so I can feel like all this actually makes sense.

I wish it were as simple as privatization, or cherry picking students, or hiring better people. It's not though.

[Hoofhurr]

I'd be cheering the decision too with that type of track record. I don't think they're trying to offend everything you've tried to achieve so far but sometimes failing systems do need to hit the restart button to turn things around. The down side appears to be that they stigmatize everyone at a failing school as being a failure when I doubt that's the case. I hope they rehire you with little controversy and that your school performs well in the future.

I don't see how any school can have a sense of direction with 4 principals in 8 years.

[Moristans]

Of course Blhurr, because, quite frankly, you have no clue what goes on here so it makes complete sense to hit the restart button. Whatever they're trying to do, on July 1st when they have to open the doors to a new year, they're gonna have a clusterfuck on their hands just like every new school year around here. The only issue is that it looks like a much bigger clusterfuck than ever before.

Understand something, they're not offering carrots for people to come back here. They're just applying the stick, period. To the people who come in to this place every year and work their asses off, the situation for next year and beyond looks much worse, not better.

The down side appears to be that they stigmatize everyone at a failing school as being a failure when I doubt that's the case. I hope they rehire you with little controversy and that your school performs well in the future.

Let me ask you a question Blhurr. If you just got kicked in the balls, whether they meant to kick you in the balls or not, would you reapply for your old position if you thought things were gonna be worse, and if you didn't have to? If you're a competent employee who's being forced to go through a rehiring process anyway, why would you put yourself through more humiliation, here, if you didn't have to?

They've got two choices here. Fire everyone and hope the competent ones reapply, or fire everyone and try to force all the competent ones to reapply. The competent ones always have options every year, and for whatever reason, choose to come back. All they are doing now is making it harder for the competent ones to come back.

[Hoofhurr]

Of course Blhurr, because, quite frankly, you have no clue what goes on here so it makes complete sense to hit the restart button.

Alright, well, if not knowing your exact situation precludes me from discussing the topic in general then why bring up your specific situation here at all? Assuming I can at least rationally talk about things I might not have the details on I'll take a shot anyway.

They've got two choices here. Fire everyone and hope the competent ones reapply, or fire everyone and try to force all the competent ones to reapply. The competent ones always have options every year, and for whatever reason, choose to come back. All they are doing now is making it harder for the competent ones to come back.

Can we at least assume their strategy has worked in multiple schools or they wouldn't be trying this method on new schools? If that's the case then maybe they are willing to risk losing established competent new teachers to possibly turn the school around. Maybe teacher competency isn't the only criterion for a successful school. Perhaps a willingness to go with the direction of the administration is also important and established, unflinching albeit competent teachers are a barrier to that?

Let me ask you a question Blhurr. If you just got kicked in the balls, whether they meant to kick you in the balls or not, would you reapply for your old position if you thought things were gonna be worse, and if you didn't have to?

Of course not. You won't see me take a crotch shot and stand tall. Even being grazed in the balls makes me drop to the floor in a futile bid to ease my pain.

[Diggles]

Why did you choose to work at a shitty school in the first place?

Why cant education find some sort of advanced formula to rate teacher performance?

[Airyth]

I'm of the opinion the quality of public education is most influenced by the students themselves and their peers.

You can say that the better funded a school is the better the quality of education is. I'll say that's because the school is better funded due to it being in a more affluent area. That means they raise more money through fundraisers. The student's parents are more likely to have finished high school and/or college and value education so they're more likely to influence the kids to study more and work harder on their education. That results in a student body where a large portion of the students value their education and even kids less likely to care about their educations will study harder and do better in school to fit in with their peers. That being said, its cyclical. Naturally if the school is well funded, has high graduation rates and has the reputation as a good school they'll have the best applicants when teaching and or administrative positions open.

Almost everyone working as a teacher is doing their best to educate and make a diffrence in the lives of their students. Just because they're at a poor performing school dosn't make them bad at their jobs. There are alot of factors involved. I see where Moristans is coming from about his school likely losing many of their best educators after their reconstitution. Sure, some will stay. They may be there because they value the challenge of motivating and teaching kids in a tougher environment; or perhaps they're raising a family in the area and loathe the idea of uprooting. I agree that many good educators will leave because of this simply fed up with the system there and looking for a more stable environment to educate in with administration that stays in place year after year and students who have a greater desire for knowledge. Its a shame for the kids who may be left with less capable educators.

[Diggles]

I'm of the opinion the quality of public education is most influenced by the students themselves and their peers.

You can say that the better funded a school is the better the quality of education is. I'll say that's because the school is better funded due to it being in a more affluent area. That means they raise more money through fundraisers. The student's parents are more likely to have finished high school and/or college and value education so they're more likely to influence the kids to study more and work harder on their education. That results in a student body where a large portion of the students value their education and even kids less likely to care about their educations will study harder and do better in school to fit in with their peers. That being said, its cyclical. Naturally if the school is well funded, has high graduation rates and has the reputation as a good school they'll have the best applicants when teaching and or administrative positions open.

Almost everyone working as a teacher is doing their best to educate and make a diffrence in the lives of their students. Just because they're at a poor performing school dosn't make them bad at their jobs. There are alot of factors involved. I see where Moristans is coming from about his school likely losing many of their best educators after their reconstitution. Sure, some will stay. They may be there because they value the challenge of motivating and teaching kids in a tougher environment; or perhaps they're raising a family in the area and loathe the idea of uprooting. I agree that many good educators will leave because of this simply fed up with the system there and looking for a more stable environment to educate in with administration that stays in place year after year and students who have a greater desire for knowledge. Its a shame for the kids who may be left with less capable educators.

I'm sure a good number of the 10% of people fired at G.E. were 'doing their best' the problem is many of these teachers 'best' is subpar and they shouldnt be teaching. G.E. has a formula for job/performance review, public education doesnt.

And the entire more pay based on education is one of the biggest bullshits I've ever seen. What a waste of tax payer money, paying people upwards of 20-50% more because they have some bullshit degree that doesnt even affect how good of a teacher they are.

[Moristans]

Alright, well, if not knowing your exact situation precludes me from discussing the topic in general then why bring up your specific situation here at all? Assuming I can at least rationally talk about things I might not have the details on I'll take a shot anyway.

I'm not trying to preclude discussion. Like I said, you're not alone when it comes to deciding about whether or not it's a good idea to summarily dismiss a staff of 350 teachers, administrators, secretaries, cooks, and janitors. That decision was made, no discussion.

Can we at least assume their strategy has worked in multiple schools or they wouldn't be trying this method on new schools?

You would assume so if they want to do it but, unfortunately, it doesn't work the way they intend to do it. Every time it's ever been tried the way they want to do it now, it fails. That's what the data show.

To put some of the issues in context. As a ghetto school, we rarely ever have a full staff. We always have subs, or non certificated teachers filling in. Most of our teachers are new, or newly certificated because we have a 25 to 50% turnover every year. In the last two years, we've replaced all the chemistry teachers. I've bee n on hiring committee after hiring committee. In the 8 years I've been at this school, we've turned over the entire administration twice, and the principal 4 times. So now, in one swoop, they are going to dismiss everybody and replace them with whom?

Anyway, there are any number of other issues. Honestly, if they had told us a year ago that at the end of this year they would reconstitute, and that they had a plan for what the school would look like, with or without our input, then spent this year sharing with us their vision for what the school would look like after reconstitution, I think many of the dedicated teachers would have been on board, just like any of the reforms we have tried in the past.

Instead, we were told in December that, come July, we would be reconstituted with a complete, highly qualified staff and a complete, fully implemented reconstitution plan that the new staff will help design.

Uh huh.

[Moristans]

Why did you choose to work at a shitty school in the first place?

It's a ghetto school. Those are the kids I want to work with. Suburban schools don't need me.

Why cant education find some sort of advanced formula to rate teacher performance?

Good question. Instead, they are just going to base them on state test scores which the kids couldn't care less about.

And the entire more pay based on education is one of the biggest bullshits I've ever seen. What a waste of tax payer money, paying people upwards of 20-50% more because they have some bullshit degree that doesnt even affect how good of a teacher they are.

I get paid exactly $500 more a year for my Master's degree. Seriously Diggles, do some research.

[Jakensama]

How accurate was the wire about ghetto schools?

[Dustie]

I don't think Maryland has such a program. Dustie? Does Maryland offer any sort of voucher system?

There are no vouchers for use in private schools in MD. There are a few public charter schools that are alternative options for the worst of the worst public schools in MD, but they only encompass a few thousand students and are not being expanded. MD usually ranks pretty low in the "eductation choice" category. I now realize that's why I've butted heads with some people here in past debates over vouchers -- they haven't experienced MD's lack of options.

[Diggles]

Lets see your schools pay scale. He's an example from the district I used to work in, an upscale suburan district thats the 7th largest in state

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after 16 years, the difference between a BA and MA+30 is 40%, thats pretty fucking considerable seeing how the majority of the excellent teachers I asked personally said the extra education meant nothing and THEY considered it bullshit too. ANd this sort of pay increase for education is pretty typical in my area.

Only 1 school district out of about 30 in the St. Louis area does merit based pay. They are in the top 3 performing wise in the state but recently just caved to switch back to education based pay.

[Moristans]

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To be fair, salary points are based on district approved training classes and district approved college credits. My Master's itself is worth $500 a year, but the credits I acquired during my masters and Ph.D are worth about 15K a year.

My point is, knowing that each district sets it's own pay scale and states determine how their public education is run, you can't make general statements.

Only 1 school district out of about 30 in the St. Louis area does merit based pay. They are in the top 3 performing wise in the state but recently just caved to switch back to education based pay.

I have no problem with merit based pay, as long as it's fair and based on something other than test score. At the very least, give me as much credit for busting my ass to move ghetto kids from Far Below Basic to Basic as the suburban teacher who churns out Proficient kids year after year for doing next to nothing and I'm on board.

[Diggles]

http://certificated.lausd.k12.ca.us/Rese...annual.pdf

To be fair, salary points are based on district approved training classes and district approved college credits. My Master's itself is worth $500 a year, but the credits I acquired during my masters and Ph.D are worth about 15K a year.

My point is, knowing that each district sets it's own pay scale and states determine how their public education is run, you can't make general statements.

Only 1 school district out of about 30 in the St. Louis area does merit based pay. They are in the top 3 performing wise in the state but recently just caved to switch back to education based pay.

I have no problem with merit based pay, as long as it's fair and based on something other than test score. At the very least, give me as much credit for busting my ass to move ghetto kids from Far Below Basic to Basic as the suburban teacher who churns out Proficient kids year after year for doing next to nothing and I'm on board.

Thats the point of my post, why cant you come up with some FORMULA for the performance of a teacher. Formula - as in combination of many factors that together in some mathematical model represent the teachers performance, E.G. FICO Score

[Moristans]

Thats the point of my post, why cant you come up with some FORMULA for the performance of a teacher. Formula - as in combination of many factors that together in some mathematical model represent the teachers performance, E.G. FICO Score

<shrug>

Each district would need their own, of course. It's heading that way, I have no doubt about it.

I'd say the main problem is with the emphasis on testing and this idea that, somehow, standardized testing, as it is done today, measures anything about what the kid has learned.

[Thudz]

Lets see your schools pay scale. He's an example from the district I used to work in, an upscale suburan district thats the 7th largest in state

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after 16 years, the difference between a BA and MA+30 is 40%, thats pretty fucking considerable seeing how the majority of the excellent teachers I asked personally said the extra education meant nothing and THEY considered it bullshit too. ANd this sort of pay increase for education is pretty typical in my area.

Only 1 school district out of about 30 in the St. Louis area does merit based pay. They are in the top 3 performing wise in the state but recently just caved to switch back to education based pay.

It's sad that I couldn't support my family if I made what the highest paid teacher does on that chart. What teachers do much more important than what I do.