Steve Jobs, hes no Edison

[Diggles]

I get a good laugh out of these horrendously false labels from ignorant non-tech people and perpetuated by the media that Steve Jobs is some sort of inventor.

Steve Jobs didnt invent shit. At best, he helped develop, steer, refine products. He was a manager and certainly no inventor.

Am I the only one offended when these people are being given credit for 'inventing' products that multitudes of other people helped with?

Edison & Tesla were actual inventors, not Steve Jobs or Bill Gates. They had patents to their name, they created completely new science/engineering fields and at best had a handful of ASSISTants helping them, not an army of engineers, designers, testers, etc.

[Grieve]

Really? Edison and Tesla had patents to their name? Gosh...you mean like the 300+ patents registered to Steve Jobs?

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/...tents.html

Anyway, Edison didn't invent many of the things (like the lightbulb) he was credited for, but based his work on countless other engineers - improvements over prior art, which is exactly the accusation leveled at Jobs. The trick was, he made them better than anyone else.

As for having an "army" of engineers, designers and testers, I don't remember hearing about any army being squeezed into that garage Jobs and Woz created the Apple I and II in...

And did you work with him at Apple or NeXT? Do you have personal first hand knowledge to indicate he didn't invent anything? Because the people that did work with him sure indicate he did. It's pretty stupid to say to that he didn't invent it because he didn't actually write the source code, or machine the piece of metal. If I have a great idea for a piece of software, and then hire some Indian engineers to code it for me, does that make them the inventors? And fellow business leaders, mostly competitors, are the ones suggesting he's the greatest CEO of his generation, and a genius.

But since you obviously have much better first hand knowledge than any of those people, I bow to your superior insights. Let's go trash the guy who just died from cancer some more.

[Jakensama]

While I don't approve of Diggles typical lack of respect for anything, I do agree with his annoyance of the people who are elevating Jobs up to the level of Jesus. I heard people on facebook today compare him to fucking newton... you know, I studied differential equations nearly 300 years after newton died, something tells me we wont be studying iProducts.

Jobs deserves to be remembered not for his contribution to technology, which was signifigant. If Sergey Brin died tommorow he would make a few newspaper but my entire facebook wouldnt be filled with people rending their clothing over the death of a billionare. He deserves respect for being perhaps one of the best marketing minds in a generation, able to turn a brand into a religion.

[Vanraw]

FYI, Edison was a scum bag, when it came to taking credit for others work. He also shut down a lot of innovation because he would not profit from it...... Also Gates was probably more of an inventor the Jobs, simple for the concept of MSDOS.

I agree with Jaken here though. Im sorry that Steve Jobs died. He was a great designer / leader, that used existing technology to build very good and sometimes even great products. He was also a very good communicator, which accounted for a large amount of Apple's market success. But I would not put him in the ranks of people like Einstein and Newton, or Tesla.

I will say that one of my over used quotes is from Jobs, and I wish corprate America would listen to it right now, because they need to. It was when Apple looked like it was a dead elephant.

“The cure for Apple is not cost-cutting. The cure for Apple is to innovate its way out of its current predicament.”

And that is exactly what he did, from a leadership perspective. Apples recovery should be credited to Steve Jobs leadership.

[Grieve]

I heard people on facebook today compare him to fucking newton...

Things people say on Facebook or message boards doesn't mean shit. However things that his peers, collaborators, and competitors in the business and the engineering world (i.e. people who have actually achieved something themselves) say mean a great deal.

[Jakensama]

When I die I am sure the people close to me will say I was a nice person, that doesn't reflect reality. And when famous people die, strangely other famous people don't piss on their graves... My point remains, when someone likes Sergey Brin dies, we wont hear this hoop-la-la... Hell, I had to google to look up Brin's name to make these past couple points.

I have no problem with Steve and certainly think he was one of the most significant businessmen of our era - but are you about to argue he is in the category of Newton? I just have to see how many stars are in your eyes before we consider this conversation..

To Diggles original post - I havent heard anyone compare him to Tesla, but that would be horribly ironic...

[Grieve]

Nope, and I haven't seen anyone outside of facebook/message boards make such a claim.

I do think comparisons to the likes of Edison, Disney, Walton, and Ford are credible. People have also compared him to Bill Gates, who achieved a lot without a doubt, but I'd put Jobs significantly above Gates.

A question for you - who would you list as better CEO, present or past?

[Jakensama]

I have seen numerous people on both my german forums and facebook comparing him to Newton.. The others, debateable.. I think the assembly line is far more important than convenient consumer electronics that would have happened within a decade, but who knows....

Which CEO do I know that did better? I don't know - thats why I respect Jobs - a CEO is a human being norman people shouldn't give a fuck about and should, by the fact that they make tens of thousands of times your salary, despise. Jobs took this horrible position that normal people despise and turned it from hatred to abject worship, and he really needs to be studied for this sociological fact. His contributions to science are negligible and will be washed over with whatever tech advances have every year, but his control over people is fuck amazing and respectable.

Anyways, whatever - it sucks he is dead, cancer sucks, but I am sincerely confused by the legions of people who act like jesus just died, its almost as bad as kurt fucking cobain - except unlike cobain at least jobs did something useful at some point.

[Grieve]

Pfft, how old were you when Kurt died - 2? ;-) I was a fan and very upset when Mr Cobain died, but I certainly never elevated his death and importance to music to the likes of Elvis Presley or John Lennon.

[Zouji]

really needs to be studied for this sociological fact. His contributions to science are negligible and will be washed over with whatever tech advances have every year, but his control over people is fuck amazing and respectable.

Anyways, whatever - it sucks he is dead, cancer sucks, but I am sincerely confused by the legions of people who act like jesus just died, its almost as bad as kurt fucking cobain - except unlike cobain at least jobs did something useful at some point.

That is why they are morning him. The messiah of the cult of Apple is dead. Layeth him down, and on the third day he will ascend into the iCloud on a golden new model iPhone 10.

[Slamz]

I'd rank Gates over Jobs. Although, as Diggles message suggests, it's hard to know just how much credit goes to the guy at the top and how much actually goes to his team, Gates lead Microsoft to be a force of nature which Apple (and NeXT) was always way far behind. Since Gates left, it seems like Microsoft has kind of subsided and turned into more of a patent holding company. Ballmer is no Gates.

What I suspect Jobs brought to the company was less to do with his personal ability to invent devices and more to do with him being good at providing focus and direction -- in particular I suspect it was him that lead the charge to bring artistry and technology together. He cared about how things looked, and combined with an effective marketing campaign, I think this is where you start to get the Jobs-as-messiah trend. He managed to bring emotional appeal into the world of computer hardware!

Apple didn't know what to do without him. It'll be interesting to see if that's changed.

So he's no Newton. I'm not really sure you could say he was a Bill Gates. Maybe a Jeff Bezos, albeit more prominently displayed -- a good, insightful leader that took his company into a good direction and made it successful in a way that almost no other CEO has managed.

[Jakensama]

Pfft, how old were you when Kurt died - 2? ;-) I was a fan and very upset when Mr Cobain died, but I certainly never elevated his death and importance to music to the likes of Elvis Presley or John Lennon.

13 when he died, most overrated musician on the face of the earth..

Anyways, you might not have, but many people did overelevate the idiot, much like people do with iJesus.

[Vllad]

Cobain is in the same vain as Jim Morrison.

Two complete idiots who had no skill who lots of people either wasted or on teenage hormones appreciated. Honoring Cobain or Morrison is like honoring Jeff Spicoli.

[Grieve]

Each to their own, Vllad, each to their own. Everyone has different tastes. I'm sure if you listed your favorite musicians, movies, books, or tv shows, you'd find plenty of people equally dismissive of your choices.

And for the record I was neither wasted nor teenage at the time.

[Fretty]

I was 13 too, and not wasted.
Kurt Cobain / Nirvana were my favorite band and my inspiration to take up music as a hobby, one that has been going strong for me for 17 years. So much so that I now have a recording studio in my basement and play several different musical instruments (at varying levels of skill). I have played in band after band, just for fun and never hoping for "the dream".

Respect the band or not, respect the music or not, respect the person or not, some people took good things away from it, such as myself (and I assume Grieve as well).

Like Grieve said, to each his own, really.

Jobs had his strengths, and if people can study them and find a way to learn from them, then this world (in business) will be a better place. I am not a "fan boy" or anything of the like, I simply see the straight facts, which are that Jobs was clearly more than just a figure head. He certainly isn't "Jesus", but he also wasn't just a pretty face.

[Vllad]

Each to their own, Vllad, each to their own. Everyone has different tastes.

True but some people just have bad taste. Some people prefer a Jeff Spicoli to Tesla/Fermi but that doesn't mean Jeff Spicoli is any less of a dumb ass.

Take food. Generally people in the American South love very bad food. That is why family and ethnic resteraunts don't survive in the south. They like chains like Waffle House because sugar and salt are spices in the South. That doesn't mean Waffle House isn't shit, it just means people like to eat shit.

Let's not make the Waffle House out to be Sofia's or Papillon's though.

I'm sure if you listed your favorite musicians, movies, books, or tv shows, you'd find plenty of people equally dismissive of your choices.

They might not enjoy what I enjoy but no one would dispute that I like quality things.

[Grieve]

True but some people just have bad taste.

Maybe so, but good or bad art is often in the eye (or ear) of the beholder. And that applies as much to the popular arts as classical arts.

When it comes to music, attitude, sentiment, passion, and so on are just as important (or more so) as technical skill or the poetry of the lyrics. For example, no one would ever accuse the Sex Pistols have having any musical talent whatsoever when it came to playing their instruments or writing lyrics. But if their performances spoke to someone in a way that, say, Eric Clapton or Bob Dylan didn't, who is anyone else to second guess that? Only a music snob would do so. Or your parents.

My wife only listens to country music. I personally can't stand country music, but I don't think that means she has bad taste, just different taste. There's something to be said for a genre that is generally positive and celebrates the good and simple things in life. There just isn't room for it in my music collection.

I still want to hear what music you most like to listen to...

[Zirak]

Take food. Generally people in the American South love very bad food. That is why family and ethnic resteraunts don't survive in the south. They like chains like Waffle House because sugar and salt are spices in the South. That doesn't mean Waffle House isn't shit, it just means people like to eat shit.

Whoa there. I think that may be a bit too broad of a generalization. I have lived in the American South for most of my life and we have our fair share of 'family and ethnic restaurants'. I could just as easily say...

Take food. Generally people in the American North love very bland, bad food. That is why family and ethnic restaurants don't survive in the north. They like chains like Big Boy because they serve uniformly bland and tasteless food. That doesn't mean Big Boy isn't shit, it just means people like to eat shit.

[Vllad]

I could just as easily say...

Take food. Generally people in the American North love very bland, bad food. That is why family and ethnic restaurants don't survive in the north. They like chains like Big Boy because they serve uniformly bland and tasteless food. That doesn't mean Big Boy isn't shit, it just means people like to eat shit.

You could say that but you would be dead wrong in one sense. Having lived in Georgia, Tennessee, California, Missouri, Oregon, Pennsylvania and New York and I travel about 100 days a year I think I have a pretty good perspective on the food thing.

While I was generalizing my comments on the south are accurate.

In the North especially Pennsylvania, Ohio and Western New York chains are very rare (sorry no Big Boys). Primarily because if you want to be employed in cities like Detroit, Pittsburg and Buffalo you have to work in a family business. Most of which are ethnic resteraunts. Greek/Russian/Polish food dominates the markets in the North, Mexican and Oriental foods dominate the West and well... White American food dominate the south (Texas being the exception).

I suggest you spend a little more time in the North or West to put the South in perspective.

Now you are right in the repect that if you eat at Big Boys you probably do like shit. People have bad taste everywhere. West, North or South.


Vllad

[Vllad]

Maybe so, but good or bad art is often in the eye (or ear) of the beholder. And that applies as much to the popular arts as classical arts.

This is true only when comparing like things however not all things are of equal quality. Take food which is another taste subject. Mc Donalds is not better then Papillons (a $200 a plate rest in Santa Clara). If you want to compare Mc Donalds to Taco Bell so be it but only an idiot would try to compare it to the best places in this country to eat. No reasonable person could think a 72 Pinto is better then a 72 Hemi Cuda. If you want to compare the Pinto to the Gremlin I am with ya.

When it comes to music, attitude, sentiment, passion, and so on are just as important (or more so) as technical skill or the poetry of the lyrics.

Music of all of the arts is the easiest to determine greatness. It is the most quantifiable and the most finite. There hasn't been anything new created in the world of music for 150 years. (their is only so much you can do with a 12 semi tone sequence) Music basically is purely technical in nature unlike other forms of art. Music is also the most quantified as far as marketing and sales so again easily quantifiable. Short of lyrics there really is no art in Music. Not anymore then being a good typist or athlete. That is why Music more so then any other form of art is very easy to quantifiy quality.

When it comes to music, attitude, sentiment, passion, and so on are just as important (or more so) as technical skill or the poetry of the lyrics. For example, no one would ever accuse the Sex Pistols have having any musical talent whatsoever when it came to playing their instruments or writing lyrics. But if their performances spoke to someone in a way that, say, Eric Clapton or Bob Dylan didn't, who is anyone else to second guess that? Only a music snob would do so. Or your parents.

Let's take the Sex Pistols. You are right, very little musical talent and below average lyrics. I could show you 100 garage bands and a long history of punk bands that perform exactly like they did. They weren't anything special. (By the way I saw them live in 1978). If you want to say their great then make sure you use some kind of reference. They were great compared to the Ramones but you can't say they were great compared to other artist in the late 70's like Queen. That is the Cuda vs. Pinto argument again.

The reasons why Sex Pistols and Cobain are popular have nothing to do with the art itself, that is another topic altogether.

My point is taste is not just in the eye of the beholder. Quality is quality no matter how enjoyable or popular it is. When something is well done regardless of taste its greatness shines through. Sorry but Cobain doesn't fall under that umbrella.



Vllad

[Slamz]

Things that become popular are things that are generally agreeable to a wide spectrum of people.

"Garfield" may be the best example of this. It's low brow, it's inoffensive and while I don't think anyone over the age of 6 really likes Garfield, it's generic enough to get into every paper in the nation.

D.C. has some truly authentic Chinese restaurants and I'd say their clientele is about 95% Chinese. While they are quite possibly quality places, I can't really tell you what high quality pork blood cubes are like because I don't like pork blood cubes and neither do most Americans. These places will never turn into a nationwide chain, except in areas where there's a lot of people who really like authentic Chinese food.

McDonalds became a huge worldwide chain because they found a sweet spot of quality, taste, expediency and price -- which is to say, given the price of McDonalds food, it's hard to beat it on taste, quality or expediency. 5 Guys is better than McDonalds but it's also more expensive and slower. There are tons of places better than 5 Guys but they are even more expensive and even slower. When I'm on a road trip and want a quick stop to eat, I don't look for 5 Guys or a sit-in restaurant; I use the McDonalds drive through.


To bring the topic back around, what I think Steve Jobs brought to Apple was a realization that Americans can find appeal in artistry. Zune vs iPod, the iPod looked better and had a far superior ad campaign. It was never about quality. I had a Rio MP3 player and they were all about quality and appeal to audiophiles and their website and forums were all about discussions on the finer aspects of electronic audio reproduction. Obviously they never put a scratch on iPod sales. Steve Jobs isn't Newton, he's Ronald McDonald. No offense. McDonalds found a way to bring cheeseburgers to a ridiculously huge audience -- with the right combination of price, advertising, marketing to children (get em early!) and even answering, in greater detail than pretty much any other chain, concerns about health and calories. Steve Jobs figured out how to bring the same mass appeal to Apple products.

He couldn't really undermine Windows, because that was a technical concern moreso than one of visual appeal. You can't market your way past the fact that your operating system doesn't run what people need it to run. But for devices like the MP3 player, phone and tablet, Apple was able to corner the market by cornering the popular appeal, largely on looks and shine.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[Zirak]

You could say that but you would be dead wrong in one sense. Having lived in Georgia, Tennessee, California, Missouri, Oregon, Pennsylvania and New York and I travel about 100 days a year I think I have a pretty good perspective on the food thing.

While I was generalizing my comments on the south are accurate.

Then I'm not sure what city/towns you lived in in the South or what kind of blinders you had on but as someone who has lived in the South for almost my entire life and has experienced the North, West, and East of the US through business travel I honestly see no difference between the regions in the availability of both fast food and specialty food in eateries. In fact, I did a count this morning for my own small town and there are more family owned small eateries, all of some ethnicity, than there are chain restaurants. The closest large city has a wide range of ethnic places to eat including Mexican, Chinese, Brazilian, Thai, Japanese, Mongolian, Russian, Greek, Italian, French, English - as well as various American ethnic eateries such as Soul, BBQ (Memphis BBQ is the best BBQ in the world), and Cajun. And many of these run the gamut of inexpensive, quick, and tasty to really expensive, slow, and delicious.

In addition, high price != quality. I have been to many high priced eateries in my travels whose food bordered on being awful.

I will grant you that it is easier to find good food of certain ethnic backgrounds depending on what region of the country you are in but that does not mean that the option is absent in the other regions or that when you do find the option in another region that it is automatically bad. The Greek restaurant I went to in Chicago on a business trip many years ago was better than anything I have found locally but the local stuff is still good - just not as good.

[Maren]

Memphis BBQ is the best BBQ in the world

Blasphemy!

Best ribs maybe...

[Vllad]

Then I'm not sure what city/towns you lived in in the South or what kind of blinders you had on but as someone who has lived in the South for almost my entire life and has experienced the North, West, and East of the US through business travel I honestly see no difference between the regions in the availability of both fast food and specialty food in eateries.

I will grant you that it is easier to find good food of certain ethnic backgrounds depending on what region of the country you are in but that does not mean that the option is absent in the other regions or that when you do find the option in another region that it is automatically bad. The Greek restaurant I went to in Chicago on a business trip many years ago was better than anything I have found locally but the local stuff is still good - just not as good.

Your first paragraph says one thing and your second paragraph says the complete opposite. I am not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me. In the South I lived in Atlanta, Springfield, Memphis and Augusta by the way.

Just to make my point lets take Mexican food for example.

In any major city in California you don't have to drive more then 5 minutes from anywhere to find Mexican food and more then 10 to find good Mexican food. Are their bad Mexican places in California? Sure, but it is purely a matter of volume.

In Atlanta their were only a hand full of Mexican places and the majority of those were chains. If I wanted good Mexican food I would have to drive 45 minutes down to Newnan since that was the only good Mexican restaurant with in 100 miles of the city. I know I ate at them all.

Why is this?

Carne Asada: Finding flank steak in the South is hard enough because people in the south don't eat it. I have trouble anywhere this side of the Mississippi buying it. It is a special order item only and cost about $8 more per lb. You order a Taco in the South and it comes with ground beef in a hard shell.

Avacado's: In California and Arizona you can find it fresh all of the time. Getting it the South is like eating road kill because you simply can't get it fresh. It is like eating Sea Food in Omaha NE.

Pasole/Manudo: People in the South don't eat it so restaurants in the South don't serve it. In order to make it myself I had to drive an hour just to find the dried chilies.

Tamale's: Forget buying that anywhere. In California their is a guy rolling a cart around on every block selling them for $1.

Hot Salsa: Can't buy Habanero's in the South that aren't moldy (even in the stores like Publics) since they don't grow there.

The bottom line is even if you could take the best Mexican places in California and open them up in say Atlanta or Buffalo. The restaurant would fail. People in Atlanta eat blander foods and think Korean run Taco Moe's constitutes Mexican food.

You can duplicate my example above with Greek, Italian, Chinese, Russian or any other food type anywhere in America. Where you live does determine the quality of the type of food you order. Does that mean their isn't one quality Mexican place in the South somewhere? No, but it would be rare.

You sure as hell can't good grits in California or New York, they eat spicier foods in California. You need to go to Mississippi for that!



Vllad

[Zirak]

Food is a passion of mine, by the way.

I do agree with you in that certain ethnic type foods are easier to find in certain regions of the country. Just because it is easier to find, for example, good Greek food in the North does not mean that the South is devoid of any kind of good ethnic food. My disagreement with you is in how you make it sound as though it were impossible to find any kind of good food in the South unless you like bland, tasteless stuff.

I love that you used Mexican as an example. Last year I took my family to California for vacation to visit with my mother who lives there. While there we went to a supposedly good Mexican place. Could not hold a candle to the Mexican place down the road from my small town Arkansas residence. I have a friend who lives in El Paso who has declared that this place is as good or better than many of the Mexican places in El Paso. Sure there are certain authentic ingredients that may be difficult to come by such as Avacados but such things can be worked around.

I am shocked at your claim of blandness and lack of spiciness however. We love our spicy foods in the South - or at least the folks I hang out with do. Habaneros do grow here by the way, I have grown them myself and used them in making my own salsa. One of my favorite dishes at aforementioned Mexican place is a habanero shrimp dish that they make. Delicious.

Edit: Mmmm, grits.