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 Post subject: Heroes
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:40 pm 
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Maybe you could do a sort of chain of command type thing. The more people you're leading, the more power you have. If you're solo or at the bottom of the chain, you're at 100%. If you're a squad leader leading 5 other people, maybe you're at 200%. If you're a platoon leader leading 5 squads, maybe you're at 500%. Still need to work in some kind of permanence, though. If the hero dies you shouldn't be able to just promote a new squad leader and he instantly gets hero status...


But yeah, hero schemes fall apart if there's no barrier to everyone eventually becoming a hero. It's not bad to be a fodder amongst 100 other fodders and 5 heroes, but it sucks to be fodder amongst 5 other fodders and 100 heroes.


Well thats it right there. You get a guy like Hoof who organizes 30 of us to follow him around the battle grounds in Warhammer, and he's buffed with some hero abilities. These abilities start building up as his group gets bigger, its not instantaneous. He wants to get more and more powerful and we want him to live (he has massive AE heals, can protect us from enemy hero players whatever).

I like it.

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 Post subject: Re: Heros
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:54 pm 
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Yeah, it could work similar to WAR morale abilities.

It's like the group itself has a morale bar, which only the group leader can spend. You group up and have 0 morale and have to build it up. If the squad leader dies, morale goes to 0.

Perhaps the morale bar has a certain amount of "resistance" to it as well. Like you are always losing X/100 morale per second, where "X" is your current morale. If you have 1000 morale, you're losing 10 per second. Solo, you'd find yourself having a hard time breaking past certain levels of morale. You could do basic morale stuff but you'd never save up enough for high end abilities. A 5 man squad would also hit a limit, but they'd be able to feed more into their morale bar and reach those better abilities. A 30 man platoon would be gaining morale so fast that the decay would be fairly meaningless even at the high end.


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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:05 pm 
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It sounds good on paper but would fall a part quickly. I can't think of a better way to create a bunch of chiefs and no indians.


Vllad


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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:45 pm 
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Well that's the thing. You can't BE a chief without any indians.

So you can all be indians (if you solo) but you can't all be chiefs.


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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:50 pm 
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Vllad wrote:
It sounds good on paper but would fall a part quickly. I can't think of a better way to create a bunch of chiefs and no indians.


Vllad


I think it would be tough to make it work, but it might be possible. For example, think about AV in WoW. For a long time, the mob would just zerg and do what was easiest. Over a period of weeks, they realized that to win you needed to do things a certain way. If making heroes out of your group leader helped your team win (just like summoning the Ice Lord or whoever that was) then people would do it.

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"Hamilton is really a Colossus to the anti republican party. Without numbers he is an host within himself. They have got themselves into a defile where they might be finished but too much security on the republican part will give time to his talents and indefatigableness to extricate them. We have had only middling performances to oppose to him. In truth when he comes forward there is nobody but yourself who can meet him. His adversaries having begun the attack he has the advantage of answering them and remains unanswered himself. For God's sake take up your pen and give a fundamental reply to Curtius and Camillas" - Thomas Jefferson to James Madison


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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:44 am 
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Herding cats. The best AVs were the Purge/ P v P premades.

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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:19 am 
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Hoofhurr wrote:
Herding cats. The best AVs were the Purge/ P v P premades.


I think there's a misconception that a lot of people didn't follow a leader because they were too stupid. I think more often then not, the "cats" were jaded after having followed horrible leaders in the past. The key to this system, would be that the incentives to buff your leader or hero would be aligned with the leaders incentives and even a bad hero would be better then no hero at all.

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"Hamilton is really a Colossus to the anti republican party. Without numbers he is an host within himself. They have got themselves into a defile where they might be finished but too much security on the republican part will give time to his talents and indefatigableness to extricate them. We have had only middling performances to oppose to him. In truth when he comes forward there is nobody but yourself who can meet him. His adversaries having begun the attack he has the advantage of answering them and remains unanswered himself. For God's sake take up your pen and give a fundamental reply to Curtius and Camillas" - Thomas Jefferson to James Madison


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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:23 am 
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Dustie wrote:
I think there's a misconception that a lot of people didn't follow a leader because they were too stupid. I think more often then not, the "cats" were jaded after having followed horrible leaders in the past.


Yes, they weren't idiots, they just were so jaded that they decided to fight in the middle for no apparent strategic, tactical, or logical reason whatsoever.

People would eventually follow people who took control, though - especially back in the pre-cross server days. Kago used to be able to get a good chunk of the Zerg to follow along with him when I would be over at his place watching.


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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:26 am 
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Jakensama wrote:
Dustie wrote:
I think there's a misconception that a lot of people didn't follow a leader because they were too stupid. I think more often then not, the "cats" were jaded after having followed horrible leaders in the past.


Yes, they weren't idiots, they just were so jaded that they decided to fight in the middle for no apparent strategic, tactical, or logical reason whatsoever.


No reason that we could understand. You need to take into account that not everyone that entered AV had the same goals that we did. We always tended to want to win. I'm sure that there were plenty of players who simply wanted to get kills or thought they new a better way to win.

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"Hamilton is really a Colossus to the anti republican party. Without numbers he is an host within himself. They have got themselves into a defile where they might be finished but too much security on the republican part will give time to his talents and indefatigableness to extricate them. We have had only middling performances to oppose to him. In truth when he comes forward there is nobody but yourself who can meet him. His adversaries having begun the attack he has the advantage of answering them and remains unanswered himself. For God's sake take up your pen and give a fundamental reply to Curtius and Camillas" - Thomas Jefferson to James Madison


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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:28 am 
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Maybe you could have a leader rating system of some sort. The only unfortunate part of this is that the established heroes would basically have to step out of the way for other people to participate.

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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:34 am 
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In Planetside, if your base got capped you had to spawn somewhere else further away. If you lost your last tech plant, you couldn't get a tank anymore. If you capped the enemy base you got to spawn there and move up. Planetside made you care about the strategy of the game because it impacted you directly.

I think that's key.

In AV, the strategy of the game didn't impact you. You lost a tower? Who cares. The enemy has our backline graveyard? Well I'll just ignore them and keep spawning up here. AV made it too easy to be ignorant of the strategy of the game. You weren't directly punished for doing it wrong, or rewarded for doing it right, as in Planetside.

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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:40 am 
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Dustie wrote:
No reason that we could understand. You need to take into account that not everyone that entered AV had the same goals that we did. We always tended to want to win. I'm sure that there were plenty of players who simply wanted to get kills or thought they new a better way to win.


If they thought fighting in the middle far away from any battlefield goal was a better way to win than trying to actively secure a goal of some sort, than they were, by definition, idiots.

Towers and graveyards used to matter in AV, but eventually it became a rush to kill the leader first or the stupid reinforcement count..


Last edited by Jakensama on Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:41 am 
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Slamz wrote:
Planetside made you care about the strategy of the game because it impacted you directly


How, by making you spawn somewhere else and fight over a different almost identical objective if you lost your current one?


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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:45 am 
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Jakensama wrote:
Dustie wrote:
No reason that we could understand. You need to take into account that not everyone that entered AV had the same goals that we did. We always tended to want to win. I'm sure that there were plenty of players who simply wanted to get kills or thought they new a better way to win.


If they thought fighting in the middle far away from any battlefield goal was a better way to win than trying to actively secure a goal of some sort, than they were, by definition, idiots.


I would put those people who fought in the middle in the category of "people who just wanted to get some kills"

As far as different ways to win, I was thinking about the people who would have different order of operations, i.e. who to kill, when to release things, what to kill, what to bypass etc.

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"Hamilton is really a Colossus to the anti republican party. Without numbers he is an host within himself. They have got themselves into a defile where they might be finished but too much security on the republican part will give time to his talents and indefatigableness to extricate them. We have had only middling performances to oppose to him. In truth when he comes forward there is nobody but yourself who can meet him. His adversaries having begun the attack he has the advantage of answering them and remains unanswered himself. For God's sake take up your pen and give a fundamental reply to Curtius and Camillas" - Thomas Jefferson to James Madison


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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:48 am 
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Slamz wrote:
In Planetside, if your base got capped you had to spawn somewhere else further away. If you lost your last tech plant, you couldn't get a tank anymore. If you capped the enemy base you got to spawn there and move up. Planetside made you care about the strategy of the game because it impacted you directly.

I think that's key.

In AV, the strategy of the game didn't impact you. You lost a tower? Who cares. The enemy has our backline graveyard? Well I'll just ignore them and keep spawning up here. AV made it too easy to be ignorant of the strategy of the game. You weren't directly punished for doing it wrong, or rewarded for doing it right, as in Planetside.


Perfect example. Players at many different idiocy levels wanted to defend tech plants. I'm not saying planetside did it perfectly, but it was able to align some goals of the individual with the goals of the group/team in a clear and beneficial way.

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"Hamilton is really a Colossus to the anti republican party. Without numbers he is an host within himself. They have got themselves into a defile where they might be finished but too much security on the republican part will give time to his talents and indefatigableness to extricate them. We have had only middling performances to oppose to him. In truth when he comes forward there is nobody but yourself who can meet him. His adversaries having begun the attack he has the advantage of answering them and remains unanswered himself. For God's sake take up your pen and give a fundamental reply to Curtius and Camillas" - Thomas Jefferson to James Madison


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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:37 pm 
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Dustie wrote:
If they thought fighting in the middle far away from any battlefield goal was a better way to win than trying to actively secure a goal of some sort, than they were, by definition, idiots.


I would put those people who fought in the middle in the category of "people who just wanted to get some kills"

As far as different ways to win, I was thinking about the people who would have different order of operations, i.e. who to kill, when to release things, what to kill, what to bypass etc.[/quote]

Sure, but I think the vast popularity of wow has shown that the average pug (who is by far the bulk of gamers in MMOs) is resistant to following orders or organizing.

Hell, we had enough of a hard time getting people to follow the ridiculously simple requirements of raiding Molten Core, and we weren't even a pug :)

Alot of these grand ideas have the central problem of getting the player base to play along like they are supposed to, and IMO its why alot of ideas that seem great in theory usually fall flat on their ass when implemented.


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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:43 pm 
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Jakensama wrote:
Alot of these grand ideas have the central problem of getting the player base to play along like they are supposed to, and IMO its why alot of ideas that seem great in theory usually fall flat on their ass when implemented.


No doubt, unless the incentives align, this will not work. The incentive needs to be more then "hey, I helped my team, that makes me feel good."

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"Hamilton is really a Colossus to the anti republican party. Without numbers he is an host within himself. They have got themselves into a defile where they might be finished but too much security on the republican part will give time to his talents and indefatigableness to extricate them. We have had only middling performances to oppose to him. In truth when he comes forward there is nobody but yourself who can meet him. His adversaries having begun the attack he has the advantage of answering them and remains unanswered himself. For God's sake take up your pen and give a fundamental reply to Curtius and Camillas" - Thomas Jefferson to James Madison


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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 3:15 pm 
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Jakensama wrote:
Slamz wrote:
Planetside made you care about the strategy of the game because it impacted you directly


How, by making you spawn somewhere else and fight over a different almost identical objective if you lost your current one?



Actually no.

In Planetside you had a lattice system so every base behind your lines impacted the front line as much as the base you were fighting over. For example: If you want to spawn a tank at the base you were fighting over the base either had to be a tech plant or it had to be able to draw a directly lattice line to a tech plant. If you couldn't then tanks couldn't be spawned.

Planetside fixes the AV issue because it makes people pay attention because it impacts everyone.

Another great example of that is not only would the base have to be able to track a lattice line to a tech plant but the tech plants power and generator had to be up and running in order for frontal bases to create tanks.

This meant that you could run back a small team behind enemy lines and blow up there tech plant gen. The prevented the enemy from producing heavy vehicles which could be the difference between winning and losing.

AV was full of idiots because it was built for idiots.


Vllad


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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 3:51 pm 
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Vllad wrote:
Jakensama wrote:
Slamz wrote:
Planetside made you care about the strategy of the game because it impacted you directly


How, by making you spawn somewhere else and fight over a different almost identical objective if you lost your current one?



Actually no.

In Planetside you had a lattice system so every base behind your lines impacted the front line as much as the base you were fighting over. For example: If you want to spawn a tank at the base you were fighting over the base either had to be a tech plant or it had to be able to draw a directly lattice line to a tech plant. If you couldn't then tanks couldn't be spawned.

Planetside fixes the AV issue because it makes people pay attention because it impacts everyone.

Another great example of that is not only would the base have to be able to track a lattice line to a tech plant but the tech plants power and generator had to be up and running in order for frontal bases to create tanks.

This meant that you could run back a small team behind enemy lines and blow up there tech plant gen. The prevented the enemy from producing heavy vehicles which could be the difference between winning and losing.

Great example of incentives and benefits being aligned. I'll idealize it a little bit:
1. Personally, if you had the tech plant you could get heavy tanks and reavers with which you could kill more people
2. For the group, if you had heavy tanks, your group could roll with heavy armor and survive longer while killing more people
3. For the team, your team would not be able to make much progress without heavy tanks and reavers

Again, I'm not saying PS mastered this whole concept, I'm just saying they did some things very well.

Quote:
AV was full of idiots because it was built for idiots.


Vllad


lol

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"Hamilton is really a Colossus to the anti republican party. Without numbers he is an host within himself. They have got themselves into a defile where they might be finished but too much security on the republican part will give time to his talents and indefatigableness to extricate them. We have had only middling performances to oppose to him. In truth when he comes forward there is nobody but yourself who can meet him. His adversaries having begun the attack he has the advantage of answering them and remains unanswered himself. For God's sake take up your pen and give a fundamental reply to Curtius and Camillas" - Thomas Jefferson to James Madison


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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:42 pm 
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AV wasn't build for idiots, it was built by idiots.

The original design of AV was just a disaster. I don't know why every PvP company on the planet has to keep learning the same lessons about player involvement and the importance of having a driving force in the game.

(Although the answer is probably that PvP games are constantly being designed by people who have little or no experience with PvP gaming...)


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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:09 pm 
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Slamz wrote:
AV wasn't build for idiots, it was built by idiots.


even more lol

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"Hamilton is really a Colossus to the anti republican party. Without numbers he is an host within himself. They have got themselves into a defile where they might be finished but too much security on the republican part will give time to his talents and indefatigableness to extricate them. We have had only middling performances to oppose to him. In truth when he comes forward there is nobody but yourself who can meet him. His adversaries having begun the attack he has the advantage of answering them and remains unanswered himself. For God's sake take up your pen and give a fundamental reply to Curtius and Camillas" - Thomas Jefferson to James Madison


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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:05 am 
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I loved AV after they improved it. It was really a nice mashup of questing, pvp, strategy, NPC involvement and rewards if still a little playgroundy.

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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:25 am 
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Hoofhurr wrote:
I loved AV after they improved it. It was really a nice mashup of questing, pvp, strategy, NPC involvement and rewards if still a little playgroundy.


True dat, for all of our joking, we did play it over 1000 times each.

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"Hamilton is really a Colossus to the anti republican party. Without numbers he is an host within himself. They have got themselves into a defile where they might be finished but too much security on the republican part will give time to his talents and indefatigableness to extricate them. We have had only middling performances to oppose to him. In truth when he comes forward there is nobody but yourself who can meet him. His adversaries having begun the attack he has the advantage of answering them and remains unanswered himself. For God's sake take up your pen and give a fundamental reply to Curtius and Camillas" - Thomas Jefferson to James Madison


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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:54 am 
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Hah yep.

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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:55 am 
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That's because AV was the only battleground out of all of them that was remotely like a battle.

Again, I say unto you:
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That is the chief problem with MMORPG PvP today. Mostly WOW but Warhammer did it too.


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