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 Post subject: Re: Random Numbers
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:28 pm 
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Sebrent wrote:
No one is perfect and "never misses", but the random numbers don't exactly do a great job of "making it realistic". They simply take some control over the outcome away from the players. In real life, the randomness in a fight comes from the individuals fighting (and sometimes their environment).


Random numbers do make it more realistic in given situations. In real life a Pak 36 in general could not penetrate the armor of a Matilda but that doesn't mean however they were an utter failure.
How do you simulate a batch of bad steel that has micro cracks that were used for a batch of Matilda's? How do you simulate that in a couple of cases that little 3.7 cm shell splintered just the right way and took out a badly placed water pump? This is where WWII online failed. In real life in non controlled enviroments even the impossible does happen.


Sebrent wrote:

When two guys enter the hexagon, there isn't some device in their gloves/skin that increases/decreases the damage/pain inflicted by various hits or the pain from a submission hold. Who wins is completely in the hands of the two competing.


This is a controlled enviroment specifically put together to limit random factors. This is why they stop fights because of cuts and limit ring size. Blood in the eye can create random factors.

This analogy is only valid if you design your game to also be a controlled enviroment. Mortal Combat etc. If want a purely player skill based game then stick to the area's that represent that kind of enviroment. 1v1 tournement fighting etc.


Sebrent wrote:
I do not see how the random number generators make for "better gameplay" than could be accomplished by having gameplay with suitable depth.


Having played games that had no randomness they are missing the single most important factor that exist in real life. You shoot, fire, cast or brawl because no matter how small the chance you continue to fight because you can still get lucky.

In games with no randomness you simply don't fight when you have no chance. You NEVER fire your Pak 36 at a Matilda. You just watch.

Watching = bad when it comes to games.


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 Post subject: Re: Random Numbers
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:33 pm 
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I think there are two main factors to consider:

* Most people don't like depth. The people who analyze MMORPG combat logs are to nerds as nerds are to regular people. I would wager that 80% of MMORPG players don't even visit forums on any regular basis, much less read about or participate in detailed combat analysis. If you make a game where that level of detail is required then you're building a niche game that most people won't like.

* Any combat system, regardless of depth, risks becoming too predictable once players learn the ropes.

Imagine, say, Magic the Gathering if you were able to simply pick cards out of your deck rather than having to take the top card from a shuffled deck. The depth and complexity of interactions between cards is still there but I think it would very quickly become predictable and boring without the element of randomness. We both know you have a Northern Paladin in there somewhere but I can still try a trick, betting you don't have that card yet, because of randomness.

Kinda like Vllad just said, randomness lets you "take chances".

Randomness isn't good for competitive tournament play -- "who's the best" in a single elimination match -- but I think it makes games more intense and fun in the long run. Over the course of 100 fights, "who's the best" will incorporate who can react to the unexpected as much as it measures who understands the basic mechanics.

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 Post subject: Re: Random Numbers
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:09 pm 
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Vllad wrote:
Random numbers do make it more realistic in given situations. In real life a Pak 36 in general could not penetrate the armor of a Matilda but that doesn't mean however they were an utter failure.


Well, actually, I would fire a Pak 36 at a Matilda only if a sapper or something else was sneaking up on it. Even though you can't kill it, plinking on it rattles their screen making seeing and shooting hard. Heck, using smoke was a good idea too. Of course some people leave a hatch open somewhere and I've capped a Panhard as a rifleman because of that.

But that really doesn't counter your arguement which I completely agree... There should be some chance to at least take out the tracks on a Matilda.


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 Post subject: Re: Random Numbers
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:34 pm 
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I just think that players provide another randomness.

In Chess, there are so many ways to react your opponent's moves. Because of this, despite a lack of randomness, players are able to continue to have fun games against the same opponents for years.

Go is another example of such a game.

What's interesting is that these are turn-based games, so they allow for much less "human randomness". In MMORPGs you have real-time combat. Alice can counter Bob's Fireball with any number of options, but she must do so quickly/effectively enough to be ready to either retaliate and push the offensive or be ready to counter Bob's next action. There are enough mistakes and incorrect choices that can happen. Alice could choose to cast her shield but do so too late, taking the full hit from the fireball and possibly "wasting" the resource(s) required to cast her shield. Bob could have been out of range when he cast the fireball. Perhaps the fireball is a slow enough moving projectile that at sufficient range from Bob Alice is able to evade it through movement.

I thoroughly dislike random number generations as part of gameplay (duh).
A player with a 50% crit chance can crit you 5 times in a row while you, with 50% crit chance as well, crit them 0 times. At this point, it becomes stupidly difficult to "react to the unknown". Throw in on-crit procs or just general proc effects and you have several random factors that can swiftly sway combat in such a way that a match that should be even is now easily in favor of the "lucky one".

If you want to have a chance at blowing up a tank's tracks then they should account for gradually eroding the strength of something. However, I don't think I should have a chance of blowing up a tank if I stab it enough times with a knife :wink: ... probably wouldn't want to either. I'm not realy big on kamikaze gameplay.


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 Post subject: Re: Random Numbers
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:19 pm 
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Sebrent wrote:
I just think that players provide another randomness.

In Chess, there are so many ways to react your opponent's moves. Because of this, despite a lack of randomness, players are able to continue to have fun games against the same opponents for years.


Yet, Chess is a warfare simulation with a set of rules. Does it make sense that if you have a knight attacking another knight that he'll win 100% of the time? If you really studied Chess, there are basic set moves that the upper level players make. Some go with defense and some offense and their opening moves usually show which way they are going. You can quickly learn a Chess players mind within a few games this way which is similiar to MMOs or other games. At that point, there is little randomness and it turns into read and react.

I get what you are saying by randomness with players and I agree that its probably one of the best random aspects of gaming. However, I much prefer some level of randomness (very small) because it models reality better. D-Day may not of happened because of weather randomness along with the Germans invasion of Russia stalling because of mud and snow. The Spanish Armada (a vastly superior force) was defeated by England in the Channel. Kublai Khan's invasion of Japan ending in disaster... twice! There are many more examples of things that happened in history that just shouldn't have.


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 Post subject: Re: Random Numbers
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:01 pm 
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if you're an expert chess player, there actually aren't all that many responses that are sound. the masters study their opponents; they know what lines their opponents prefer and where their strengths are, and each player tries to steer the game in a direction they have studied but which they hope their opponent hasn't.

I used to play chess with an expert a lot. he would play unusual moves against me, but because I didn't understand exactly why they were unsound, and I didn't know exactly how to punish them, he was able to get away with it. and if I made a mistake, he would often pause to ponder the best way to take advantage of my error -- he didn't take this time because he had to decide which of his options were good and which were bad, he instantly knew which options were good but was trying to decide which of the good options to pursue. it led to a very defensive style of play on my part -- I would build a fortress and resist the temptation to attack unless I was absolutely certain that I had the proper positioning to support it. this strategy didn't help me win more, but it did help me lose less.

arguably, it also made the game less fun because for the most part I stopped attacking. chess can be a fun game for years only if the two players are of similar skill.

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 Post subject: Re: Random Numbers
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:55 am 
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@Dharus's post:
If you want something like those large events to be simulated in game, go to Cursed Shore in Orr when we don't own any of the shrines and fight in the "bad areas" where random bad shit keeps happening to you. Then think about what it would be like for that to happen in wPvP to you :P I believe that would be quite irritating. Though, I think if it was caused by a team controlling 1+ key points (as opposed to random "freak weather") it could add some additional interesting dynamics to wPvP.

@Snowreap's post:
I agree that Chess, a game that is 100% skill, can be "less fun" if the skill of the two players is imbalanced. The difference between that and MMOs is that you aren't stuck for 1+ hours 1v1 against the same person. If you encounter someone who is better than you, they kill you, you rez, and then you're back into the fight in the next minute or so and have a chance to encounter someone who is closer to your skill-level.

Additionally, in chess, you can "fix the problem" by "getting better". When random numbers "screw you over" there is nothing you can do except "hope it doesn't happen again" or "hope it doesn't happen often".


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