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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 12:14 pm 
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Are you looking for home defense here or hunting? I honestly think for the former that the rifle is a bad bet. If you need to shoot from that far away that it's beyond pistol range, you are going to jail. From close range, rifles just lose out some due to the closed quarters in a household (not to mention HELLA over-penetration worries).

If you want true reliability in a defense weapon, get yourself a good .357. Revolvers don't jam. They are plenty accurate if you take the time at the range with it and it will stop what you are firing at.

Remember that pistol/shotgun are considered ideal for home defense for a reason.

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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 12:33 pm 
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no. prob more Elk been killed with sporterized .30-06s than any caliber (sporterized meaning customized previous military rifles) and they can take down an antelope without question.

but it is more of where you hunt and the terrain. i hunt deer in timber from a tree stand with limited view, that is why my .30-06 only has a fixed 4x scope because it would be a waste to have larger in timber. also, now i live in IL and have to hunt deer with a shotgun slug anyway. i use iron sites and kill them less than 50yds.

.30-06 is imho a little big for antelope and it doesn't shot as far accurately as a .243 imho. my .243 is scoped with a Luepold 6.5 - 20x that has the ability to shot better than i can. (course after i hit 40 and needed glasses all of my shooting skills have suffered)

there is a fine balance in long ranged rifles. you have to have enough bullet mass get there to penetrate the target and do it accurately. i had bought the big scope for a 300 Weatherby Mag and it was to much scope for the gun. at 100 yards the best anyone could do with it was 3in groups. the bullets would start to wooble and that was just as accurate as the gun was. (i traded it in shortly after that)

you can go the other way tho too. you might get something like a .22-250 or a .223 for gophers, be able to kill them from a mile away and still not be able to bring home your deer because it will run off wounded and you may not have the ability to track it.

so it is a combination of distance and target. at 100yds a .30-06 will bring down mature deer and elk, but might tear up an antelope that weighs in at 75 - 130 lbs or a small deer or coyotes as an example.

if the target is limited in size i think the .243 is a better choice especially if longer distance is wanted. but if you ever want the option of Elk, the .30-06 was my back up rifle when i was in CO.

here we hunt deer during the rut. they are flat stupid then. all they want to do is breed and they forget many of their survival instincts. i have shot them directly underneath me.

i also agree with Riz that a rifle is not even close to the best for home defense. and it would depend on where you live as to what you should own.

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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 1:01 pm 
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Ok, thanks. I need to look at both it seems 30-06 and .243.

PS
Of course the rifle is not for home defense! Didn't you see that part about getting a shotgun and pistol? =)

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 Post subject: Re: The Rifle Thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:55 pm 
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I have been looking for a rifle for the past couple weeks. I wanted to get one for elk hunting out west if I ever go (my Dad and brother go every couple years), deer hunting here on the east coast where I am now, and general purpose long range target shooting. But, I will be honest, a big part of my decision to start looking was a string of emails a couple friends of mine and I have recently sent back and forth hypothesizing/joking about the "upcoming" apocalypse. If shit ever hits the fan I'd like a good "sniper" rifle for defense.

I already have a Remington 1187 and a Savage .22 pump action rifle, so I have those bases covered in my arsenal.

So, with that as my starting point I went out searching.

I will spare you all the agonizing and theorizing I went through to make my final decision, but I narrowed the many choices (caliber, type of action, manufacturer, model, etc) down to a Remington 700 SS .308 24 5R Milspec. This article http://www.snipercountry.com/InReviews/ ... ilspec.asp along with other research got me chomping at the bit to get one. They stopped making them and they're rare, but I was able to find a factory new one at a dealer in Kentucky for a decent price.

So, short story long, today I got the ok from the wife (she wasn't happy, but I was steadfast) and went to my local dealer and ordered it. It's on it's way. I'm really excited, and glad to be done with it - I had become pretty obsessed in my search for a rifle over the last couple weeks. Now I can move on and start obsessing over what scope to put on it...


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 Post subject: Re: The Rifle Thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:17 pm 
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Uncle Shags wrote:
I have been looking for a rifle for the past couple weeks. I wanted to get one for elk hunting out west if I ever go (my Dad and brother go every couple years), deer hunting here on the east coast where I am now, and general purpose long range target shooting. But, I will be honest, a big part of my decision to start looking was a string of emails a couple friends of mine and I have recently sent back and forth hypothesizing/joking about the "upcoming" apocalypse. If shit ever hits the fan I'd like a good "sniper" rifle for defense.

I already have a Remington 1187 and a Savage .22 pump action rifle, so I have those bases covered in my arsenal.

So, with that as my starting point I went out searching.

I will spare you all the agonizing and theorizing I went through to make my final decision, but I narrowed the many choices (caliber, type of action, manufacturer, model, etc) down to a Remington 700 SS .308 24 5R Milspec. This article http://www.snipercountry.com/InReviews/ ... ilspec.asp along with other research got me chomping at the bit to get one. They stopped making them and they're rare, but I was able to find a factory new one at a dealer in Kentucky for a decent price.

So, short story long, today I got the ok from the wife (she wasn't happy, but I was steadfast) and went to my local dealer and ordered it. It's on it's way. I'm really excited, and glad to be done with it - I had become pretty obsessed in my search for a rifle over the last couple weeks. Now I can move on and start obsessing over what scope to put on it...


You obviously know a lot more then me about this, but I've arrived at the same conclusion. Remington 700 .308.

What is the difference between the one you got and the standard SPS from Remington? Is it just the bored barrel?

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire/model-700/model-700-sps-stainless.aspx

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"Hamilton is really a Colossus to the anti republican party. Without numbers he is an host within himself. They have got themselves into a defile where they might be finished but too much security on the republican part will give time to his talents and indefatigableness to extricate them. We have had only middling performances to oppose to him. In truth when he comes forward there is nobody but yourself who can meet him. His adversaries having begun the attack he has the advantage of answering them and remains unanswered himself. For God's sake take up your pen and give a fundamental reply to Curtius and Camillas" - Thomas Jefferson to James Madison


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 Post subject: Re: The Rifle Thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:44 pm 
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Yeah, the rifling is different. The info on exactly what "5R" is is kind of sketchy. But apparently 5R is some fancy barrel rifling technique which gives higher accuracy than regular barrels. All Remington 700s are supposedly awesome for long range anyways, but the 5R got a reputation for being better/best.

Honestly, the 5R is a few years old, and I doubt Remington would take a step back and make worse barrels now than they were 5 years ago. I think one of the reasons I settled on that particular model was I found very positive info on it specifically. There are so many damn variations to the 700 I had a hard time finding good info on each, so I just went with the SS.

For instance, here is the current list of 700s from the Remington site:
http://www.remington.com/product-famili ... l-700.aspx
There's 30 friggin 700s!... Which one is best for the money? I couldn't figure it out so I went with the 5R.


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 Post subject: Re: The Rifle Thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 3:38 pm 
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Here are my 700 decisions:
Chambering: 30-06, or .308 chose .308
Semi auto or bolt: chose bolt
Model: SPS, compostite, don't really care as long as its durable, may get stainless

My last two decisions for my 700
Barrel: Bored or "heavy" barrel or regular: the difference in weight is huge, thoughts? 20", 24" ? thoughts?
Scope: No clue, but I just wonder if its silly to get one form Remington that comes with the Leopal (sp?) scope. Thoughts?

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"Hamilton is really a Colossus to the anti republican party. Without numbers he is an host within himself. They have got themselves into a defile where they might be finished but too much security on the republican part will give time to his talents and indefatigableness to extricate them. We have had only middling performances to oppose to him. In truth when he comes forward there is nobody but yourself who can meet him. His adversaries having begun the attack he has the advantage of answering them and remains unanswered himself. For God's sake take up your pen and give a fundamental reply to Curtius and Camillas" - Thomas Jefferson to James Madison


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 Post subject: Re: The Rifle Thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:47 pm 
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Dustie wrote:
Here are my 700 decisions:
Chambering: 30-06, or .308 chose .308
Semi auto or bolt: chose bolt
Model: SPS, compostite, don't really care as long as its durable, may get stainless

My last two decisions for my 700
Barrel: Bored or "heavy" barrel or regular: the difference in weight is huge, thoughts? 20", 24" ? thoughts?
Scope: No clue, but I just wonder if its silly to get one form Remington that comes with the Leopal (sp?) scope. Thoughts?
Barrel:
Shorter is good if you plan on carrying it a lot and want to swing it around and shoot quick.
Long is good for higher bullet velocity and maybe accuracy.
Fluted lightens it and makes it cool faster. Makes barrel wobble a little more.
Heavy (thickness) is good for accuracy because it lowers the wobble.
I don't know what the hell is going on with that triangle barrel they have. That looked too new fangled crazy for me - skipped it.

Most of that is just geek talk though. How much you would even notice any of the above characteristics is debatable. Especially if it's just a couple inches difference in barrel length. Overall gun weight might be the most obvious change, but who knows. The gun dealer had me lift two different guns to see the supposedly big difference in weight between them and they felt the same to me...

Scope:
I don't know either. I'm thinking the Leupold 4-12x in the mid range model, around $500. http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/13123-34.html My dad loves his. It literally got run over by my Uncle's F350 and still works. The SPS at the top with the Leupold says "scope and suppressor not included" in fine print.

It's funny we came to pick the same gun. Makes me feel good about my decision. Plus I can tell my wife I'm not the only crazy one. "See! He's getting one too!"


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 Post subject: Re: The Rifle Thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 11:55 am 
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Ok good. I like to hear that kind of stuff. I also need to go sign up in AR15.com, Slamz says you can get lots of good info there.

Last question, how did you initially get put on to the Remington 700? I found my way to it after finding that it was basis for the US Army M24 sniper rifle and its pretty cheap (less then 1K). I'm like you, I want to be able to hunt something big during the apocalypse, and have some long/med range defense capability added to my shorter range shotgun and hand gun defense.

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"Hamilton is really a Colossus to the anti republican party. Without numbers he is an host within himself. They have got themselves into a defile where they might be finished but too much security on the republican part will give time to his talents and indefatigableness to extricate them. We have had only middling performances to oppose to him. In truth when he comes forward there is nobody but yourself who can meet him. His adversaries having begun the attack he has the advantage of answering them and remains unanswered himself. For God's sake take up your pen and give a fundamental reply to Curtius and Camillas" - Thomas Jefferson to James Madison


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 Post subject: Re: The Rifle Thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:44 pm 
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It’s kind of hard to map out exactly all the twists and turns I took in my decision process, but I’ll try. Once I settled on the 308 caliber I started off thinking I was going to get an AR15. There is lots of talk about really high levels of accuracy, even at very long ranges. I was thinking a DPMS or Armalite, which are in the $1k range. I figured I could get a long range rifle and an assault range style rifle all in one. And to a certain degree you definitely can. But, like everything else, you do sacrifice a little on both ends if you want to perform both roles. I went back and forth on all kinds of different semi-auto 308s (M1A1, AR10s, FNAR, FN FAL, Kel Tec RFB, Browning BAR, Belleti R1 and M1), trying to find the perfect one that could do both with no sacrifices. At some point I decided that gun doesn’t exist and that I should just get two guns. A kick ass long range sniper rifle that can nail tacks which I could use for hunting, and also, some day down the road when I can afford it and need it due to zombies or commies, a kick ass assault rifle.

That’s how I got to the bolt action decision. Accuracy. Oh, also, there was a small part of me that didn’t want to show up in my Uncle’s field when everyone is sighting in their hunting rifles at the beginning of the season and pull out a crazy looking assault rifle. I would have gotten endless amounts of shit. That’s kind of a lame excuse, but what can I say? Once I decided on bolt I got to the 700 decision pretty much the same as you. It’s got the best reputation with both hunters and snipers, and it’s relatively cheap.


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 Post subject: Re: The Rifle Thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:02 pm 
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I know how you feel about taking shit for worrying about zombies and commies. The worst part is that when the zombies kill everyone but us, we won't even get to say "I told you so!"

Edit:
Here is my load out for the apocalypse/survival:
Remington 1100 12 gauge semi auto
Glock 17 9mm
Remington 700

What I really want to do one day, is start a group for those of us who worry about the zombies, but aren't whack jobs.

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"Hamilton is really a Colossus to the anti republican party. Without numbers he is an host within himself. They have got themselves into a defile where they might be finished but too much security on the republican part will give time to his talents and indefatigableness to extricate them. We have had only middling performances to oppose to him. In truth when he comes forward there is nobody but yourself who can meet him. His adversaries having begun the attack he has the advantage of answering them and remains unanswered himself. For God's sake take up your pen and give a fundamental reply to Curtius and Camillas" - Thomas Jefferson to James Madison


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 Post subject: Re: The Rifle Thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:46 pm 
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When/if I get a rifle, I'm still leaning towards the FN FAL.

I'm just not sold on the value of a "sniper rifle". Maybe if I lived in Montana. What I really need to be convinced on is the accuracy improvement of a scoped .308 Remington 700 versus a scoped FN FAL and then whether or not there is any circumstance where that difference would matter to me.


I'm fairly well ruling out the 5.56x45mm rounds (AR-15) after reading stuff like this:
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/03/army_m14_032210w/

The Army is putting two marksmen armed with 7.62 rifles in a squad instead of just one because they're finding that in long range engagements, the 5.56 isn't cutting it. So .308 or 30-06 or something like that seems the way to go. Although 5.56 would still be more fun for target shooting, I bet.

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 Post subject: Re: The Rifle Thread
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:14 pm 
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I like the FN FAL. It's battle proven too.

Here's a thread I just found on FAL accuracy.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/show ... p?t=281405

I'll agree with you that it's probably plenty accurate enough. It's actually pretty amazing that it can be that good even at 600 yards. For whatever reason, I decided I wanted to be able to shoot real accurately even out to 600-1k yards. Will I ever need to or even get a chance to? Probably not. But if I ever have to, with the 700, I can. It's kind of a min/max thing I guess.


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 Post subject: Re: The Rifle Thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:58 pm 
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Update on my rifle. It came in the mail and I picked it up at the dealer. I then went through over a months worth of buyers remorse. I just didn't fall in love with it when I opened it up. I realized I like the traditional hunting rifle look with the blued barrel and walnut stock and this one has more of a modern look. I came pretty close to selling it on gunbroker and getting a CZ 550 or a T/C Icon, but I decided to suck it up and keep it. My Dad got me a Nikon Monarch 3-12x 42mm scope which I really like. Here is the total package hanging on the wall: http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a0cf2 ... /ry%3D400/

As far as shooting and accuracy goes, I've had a realization. The type of shooting that people claim to be able to do on the internet is not going to be happening for me, no matter what gun I use. On shooting forums everyone is shooting .5 MOA, 5 shots touching at 100 yds, 1inch groups at 200 yds, etc, and it's real easy to get sucked in and think you can too. Honestly, I think the majority of them are full of shit. When you are actually sitting behind the scope and trying to hold steady at 200 yards, you realize just how far that is. 300 yards is ridiculously far, on 12 power the crosshairs are dancing all over the place. The reality is that I got (and paid for...) way more gun than I will need. Yes, the gun may be able to shoot half inch groups, but as it stands right now, I definitely am not... I would say I'm more of a 1.5 to 2 inch shooter at 100 yards, and I could be doing that with half as much as I spent.

And you know what? 2 inch groups is good efrigginough. I don't need to compete with a bunch of internet gun geeks. I've been out shooting a few times and this weekend I made 2 shots at 350 yards which could qualify as a "very dead deer" sized group. That's all I need. There is a field at my parents cabin that has a 300-350 yard spot where there are deer all the time at dusk. That means a full freezer every year, which will make me a very happy gun owner. 8)

There are many lessons I learned during this whole gun buying fiasco:
I won't buy a gun until I have actually held it, or one of the same make and model, in my hands and at my shoulder.
Wait a couple weeks before pushing the "buy" button on something this expensive. Then, before pushing, wait again...
Be careful of specialty forum talk. People on the internet exaggerate, lie and make mountains of molehills. (Yeah, I know. Duh...)
There is a reason the cutoff for military snipers is 1 MOA - it's really friggin hard to do.


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 Post subject: Re: The Rifle Thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:44 pm 
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To get out of basic training you have to hit 22 out of 40 targets with two 20 round magazines. 20 in the prone position and 20 in a standing position.

The range has a series of targets that pop up for a predetermined amount of time. 50 meters 3 secs. 75 meters 3 secs, 100 meters 3.5 secs, 150 meters 4 secs, 200 meters 4 secs, 250 meters 4.5 secs, 300 meters 5 secs. The pop up is random in the order. You are guarenteed 1 300 meter target and 1 50 meter target. If you strike the target when it pops up you get a hit. You can use as many rounds as neccessary on a target. If you hit the target it drops immediately.

When I was 18 I did 39 out of 40 on my qualifying round. During practice I did 40/40 multiple times. I never did less then 37.

The rest of my time in the military I was qualifying with an M-60 so I never got much practice on an M-16 after that.

When I was 42 years of age I had the chance to zero and get on the range again with an M-16. I tried about 10 times and I couldn't get above 35. I was doing a bunch of 33's.

Maybe it is age, maybe it was the M-16 I had in when I was 18 or maybe I picked up bad habits using other weopons. Who knows.

Finding the right weopon for you is like finding the right wife.

When I was a teen my grandfather could out shoot me with a 30/30 winchester vs. my M-1 Garand. /Shrug. Once you find one that fits you I would just go with it. You will know when you find the weopon best for you.


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 Post subject: Re: The Rifle Thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:30 pm 
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That sounds like a blast. I'd love to do a course like that. Makes me want an AR...


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 Post subject: Re: The Rifle Thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:16 pm 
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Shags were you using a bipod/sitting/prone or anything? Stances can make a huge impact on accuracy, especially on repeat accuracy

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 Post subject: Re: The Rifle Thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 6:43 pm 
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Bench and prone only so far. There's a bench with a sandbag that I started on and was doing decent with, but it isn't very sturdy and I'm suspicious that it wiggles and messes with my accuracy. This past weekend I tried prone using a log as a rest and I did a bit better. I think prone with a good bipod and a sandbag for the butt would be my ideal. Or a real steady bench with a good rest. My uncle has a real nice bench with a vice I'll check out this weekend to compare. Not ready to buy a Harris bipod quite yet. Still letting my wife cool off from the gun, cleaning supplies and ammo sticker shock...

What I was really surprised by is ammunition. The second time I went out with different (cheap) ammo than I used to sight it in and was getting bad groups. I started to get worried, but it turns out my gun just doesn't like that ammo. Luckily I found some good Hornady rounds that are fairly cheap, accurate and made for hunting, so I'll stick with them.

Another thing that I think might make me a shitty shot is I've always had a fast pulse, even when I was in shape in high school. My resting rate is like 85, and I can actually see the crosshairs bounce to my heartbeat...


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 Post subject: Re: The Rifle Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:46 pm 
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Uncle Shags wrote:
That sounds like a blast. I'd love to do a course like that. Makes me want an AR...


The real fun is running a course with an M-60.

I was a door gunner on choppers.

You would fly down a course flying 30 feet from the ground with targets popping up. The hardest target was you had to hit a target between to vehicles then the Huey would turn a 180 (with the shooter on the outside of the turn) and you had to pop a target between two post and you had to do it in about 5 seconds.

Those sharp 180's would drive your chest into the weopon platform so you had to recover quickly to get some rounds off.


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 Post subject: Re: The Rifle Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:16 pm 
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Uncle Shags wrote:
Update on my rifle. It came in the mail and I picked it up at the dealer. I then went through over a months worth of buyers remorse. I just didn't fall in love with it when I opened it up. I realized I like the traditional hunting rifle look with the blued barrel and walnut stock and this one has more of a modern look. I came pretty close to selling it on gunbroker and getting a CZ 550 or a T/C Icon, but I decided to suck it up and keep it. My Dad got me a Nikon Monarch 3-12x 42mm scope which I really like. Here is the total package hanging on the wall: http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a0cf2 ... /ry%3D400/

As far as shooting and accuracy goes, I've had a realization. The type of shooting that people claim to be able to do on the internet is not going to be happening for me, no matter what gun I use. On shooting forums everyone is shooting .5 MOA, 5 shots touching at 100 yds, 1inch groups at 200 yds, etc, and it's real easy to get sucked in and think you can too. Honestly, I think the majority of them are full of shit. When you are actually sitting behind the scope and trying to hold steady at 200 yards, you realize just how far that is. 300 yards is ridiculously far, on 12 power the crosshairs are dancing all over the place. The reality is that I got (and paid for...) way more gun than I will need. Yes, the gun may be able to shoot half inch groups, but as it stands right now, I definitely am not... I would say I'm more of a 1.5 to 2 inch shooter at 100 yards, and I could be doing that with half as much as I spent.

And you know what? 2 inch groups is good efrigginough. I don't need to compete with a bunch of internet gun geeks. I've been out shooting a few times and this weekend I made 2 shots at 350 yards which could qualify as a "very dead deer" sized group. That's all I need. There is a field at my parents cabin that has a 300-350 yard spot where there are deer all the time at dusk. That means a full freezer every year, which will make me a very happy gun owner. 8)

There are many lessons I learned during this whole gun buying fiasco:
I won't buy a gun until I have actually held it, or one of the same make and model, in my hands and at my shoulder.
Wait a couple weeks before pushing the "buy" button on something this expensive. Then, before pushing, wait again...
Be careful of specialty forum talk. People on the internet exaggerate, lie and make mountains of molehills. (Yeah, I know. Duh...)
There is a reason the cutoff for military snipers is 1 MOA - it's really friggin hard to do.


I think your better off being limited by yourself rather than the hardware. You can get better over time and figure out little tricks whereas the only way for your hardware to get better, is to update it or change it. I think you made the right call.

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 Post subject: Re: The Rifle Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:48 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:21 pm
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Location: Canandaigua, New York
Dustie wrote:
your better off being limited by yourself rather than the hardware

Yeah, that's the way I've been trying to look at it.


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