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 Post subject: Semi-auto shotties
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:06 am 
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Anyone have one they would recommend for home defense? I'm interested in a 18-18.5" home defense w/pistol grip and some sort of way to mount flashlight.

I'm leaning toward either something from Remmington or Mossberg. I know the pump models pretty well but not really seen much press/videos about semi-auto versions. I only ever see Benelli when semi-autos are mentioned.

A co-worker (huge time shooter & ex-Army) said that for home defense that a 20 gauge is going to be a lethal as a 12. So it would have less recoil plus able to hold more rounds, right? I hadnt considered that. Plus I guess if you have a semi auto that can fire pretty fast with lower recoil you can just pepper someone pretty good so first shot doesnt have to be as lethal.

How does 20 gauge ammo cost compare to 12? I was sorta leaning to a 12 because the available of everything would be beter/more popular.

Any reason to get a 18.5 barrel if I dont think the ATF is going to be fucking with me measuring my barrel to be legal?

I know you can shoot pumps fairly fast with practice, but it seems like if the semi-autos are super reliable these days why bother with pump? Plus it would be easier to shoot with weak hand or if you were incapacitated in any fashion. Someone pointed out that if you dont keep a shell chambered that the pull back would simulate racking sound as well. Either way anyone who is in my home is lucky if they get a warning (by way of racking sound)

I have my family heirloom Remmington Wingmaster 870 pump 27" that I am probably going to use to trade for something in semi-auto. I know the Wingmasters were the 'Cadillac' of the 870 models and this gun is in tip-top shape. Any estimates on what I could fetch for it? Its probably shot less than 1k rounds in its life and made in 60's or 70's.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-auto shotties
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 11:24 am 
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I have a Remington 1100 with 18" barrel and extended mag. 12 gauge. I can't remember now what my second leading choice was (if it was Mossberg or something else) but after a lot of online reading it seemed to come down to personal preference with no serious problems in either gun (whatever the other one was).

Going to 20 gauge wouldn't get you any more rounds -- at least not in the usual in-line shotgun magazine, because 20 gauge is the same length, just narrower. I don't think 12 gauge recoil is that distracting and being semi-auto, some of the power is absorbed by the action to chamber the next round anyway.

When looking for ammo you'll notice you can get low recoil shells. Don't buy em unless you just want a few for giggles. I'm sure they're fine in a pump but my experience in the 1100 is that they fail to eject about 1 time in 10 whereas I have yet to have a regular shell fail to eject.

And yeah, personally I don't leave a round in the chamber of my 1100 because I'm too chicken. It has a safety button but the standard trigger is pretty light. There is a very loud CHK-CHK sound of chambering the first round (which is done by pulling back the action, like on a rifle) that would definitely be heard for what it is.

I recall reading a big report that suggested #1 buckshot was the best for home defense -- best mix of number of balls in the shell while still having a big enough ball to do reliable damage but nobody ever carries it that I've seen (probably could find it online). I just put in alternating #00 and slugs. (The only indoor range near me only lets us fire slugs anyway.) My opinion is shotgun > rifle for most practical situations, unless you live in Montana or something and "home defense" includes your 40 acre property.

And my justification on semi-auto rather than pump was the fear of "under pumping": that in a stressful situation you might work the pump action but fail to bring it all the way back and thus fail to chamber the next round, which is apparently a thing. With semi-auto you trade that for the usual semi-auto problems of dud shells or jamming on ejection but other than low recoil shells I've not had any problems.


Barely related footnote:
If you're also thinking about rifles, I would look for something other than an AR-15. I like to point out to people that in most (or maybe all) states, you cannot legally hunt deer with an AR-15. The media acts like the AR-15 is a super powered death machine but the round is considered too small to be a humane hunting weapon for deer. If I ever get around to rifle shopping I'm going to look for .308 or 7.62 (5.56 is almost the same as a .223, which is to say, just barely bigger caliber than a .22. The military's decision to use 5.56 is, I think, based more on wanting a lot of volume of fire and easier logistics rather than killing power per shot. I'm sure it's cheaper to shoot at the range, though, which may be part of why they're so popular with home buyers. But there are a lot of bigger calibers that are very popular hunting rounds and easy to find.)

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-auto shotties
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 6:32 pm 
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The military uses 5.56 to wound enemy soldiers. A wounded soldier is a burden to his comrades and also ties up a medic (assuming they have one). You want to, ideally, wound the soldiers and not kill them. When you kill them, they are no longer a liability to there comrades.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-auto shotties
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 8:27 pm 
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thanks Slamz, I'll check out some videos.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-auto shotties
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 10:07 pm 
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I'd go 12 gauge, mainly because I'd want a gun to use for other things as well. Tin has a modular Mossberg 500 that has interchangeable stocks and barrels that would probably be my first buy if I were going shotgun for home defense. In a self defense situation, I wouldn't worry about recall that much because I think the adrenaline pumping would take over and would make it a moot point. Granted... I've never been in a self defense situation so...

If you're really bored, watch this video series
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTwtAiV ... eqtBGZrw_4

It goes over a lot of information about shotgun barrel lengths and what type of ammo... it will take you a while to watch them all.

As for Semi auto vs Pump. From my research, Semiauto's have come a long way. Everyone used to go pump because they were reliable, but most of what I hear now is that Semi-Auto's are way more reliable than they used to be so really it's a matter of preference now. I'd probably stick with a remington or mossberg personally as they are reasonably cheap and good quality. If money weren't an issue, then I'd go with a Benelli M4... but that's a $2000 gun and for most people, money is always an issue.

I think as long as you stick with a reputable manufacturer(Remington, Mossberg, Benelli, Beretta, etc), you're going to be fine.

If you're going with a pistol grip, make sure it has a stock on it as well...

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-auto shotties
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 11:20 am 
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Zouji wrote:
The military uses 5.56 to wound enemy soldiers. A wounded soldier is a burden to his comrades and also ties up a medic (assuming they have one). You want to, ideally, wound the soldiers and not kill them. When you kill them, they are no longer a liability to there comrades.



The use of standard big caliber ammo went out of use really around the time of our Civil War. Starting the 20th century short of the American bigus dickus .50 cal machine gun most weopons were .30 cal or smaller. Some SMG's used .45 but they were not very effective.

It is simple physics. Higher velocity lighter caliber weapons are more versatile for the battle field. They learned the lesson the hard way in WWI. You want small caliber weapons to fire at both long and short ranges with equal results. You also need to be able to push the projectile even when it tumbles. Velocity counts more than caliber does in combat.


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 Post subject: Re: Semi-auto shotties
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:03 pm 
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I carry an HK VP9 with hollows for self-defense. At home I keep a .45 spring field armory with hollows.
In case of small insurgencies, the Sig Sauer .556 classic with 60 round drum and XM855 ammo you can get the intruder and 30 of his buddies. I picked some colors I thought you might like.

Home defense with Shotguns: go to gunbroker.com to shop.


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 Post subject: Re: Semi-auto shotties
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 11:15 pm 
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sorry I'm not buyin in euro junk crice, way too overpriced.

New range & shop I found had either a Rem1100 or Mossberg 930 tactical version with pistol grip & 18'ish barrel but it was like $800 something! I was expecting something closer to $500 or is that only for the pumps?

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-auto shotties
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 12:06 am 
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Pumps are typically cheaper.
Link

There's a semi-auto Mossberg 20 gauge for $450. 20" barrel though

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-auto shotties
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 12:13 am 
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Yep, that's pumps. Semi-auto shotties are expensive. I wanna say my 12 gauge Remington 1100 was around $1000. (I've seen them be a lot more expensive than that, even, but that's usually for fancy aesthetics. Mine is very basic.)

I have heard that with things like AR-15s you can get cheaper by buying parts separately and assembling it yourself but I dunno if that applies to semi-auto shotguns and I've never really looked into it.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-auto shotties
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 12:46 am 
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I don't think shotties are Iike that. You can sometimes replace the grips and stocks and some other parts, but I've never heard of anyone building a shotgun.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-auto shotties
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:38 am 
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Strife wrote:
I don't think shotties are Iike that. You can sometimes replace the grips and stocks and some other parts, but I've never heard of anyone building a shotgun.


Yeah, seems like that should be an option though. So many different possible stock, barrel and magazine options, it would be nice to just buy the receiver and then pick the particular add-ons you want. As it is you kinda just have to find a store that can get the particular combination you want, but maybe that's just the way it is. I notice cheaperthandirt didn't have the 1100 I own in stock and while they sell parts, they don't sell receivers so there's no "build your own" option, at least from there.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-auto shotties
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 3:12 pm 
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Slamz wrote:
Strife wrote:
I don't think shotties are Iike that. You can sometimes replace the grips and stocks and some other parts, but I've never heard of anyone building a shotgun.


Yeah, seems like that should be an option though. So many different possible stock, barrel and magazine options, it would be nice to just buy the receiver and then pick the particular add-ons you want. As it is you kinda just have to find a store that can get the particular combination you want, but maybe that's just the way it is. I notice cheaperthandirt didn't have the 1100 I own in stock and while they sell parts, they don't sell receivers so there's no "build your own" option, at least from there.

That's kind of like the Moss berg 500 flex. You can customize ithe to be anything you want from a waterfowl gun to a shorty with a pistol grip and tactical rails

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-auto shotties
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 9:14 pm 
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Diggles wrote:
sorry I'm not buyin in euro junk crice, way too overpriced.

New range & shop I found had either a Rem1100 or Mossberg 930 tactical version with pistol grip & 18'ish barrel but it was like $800 something! I was expecting something closer to $500 or is that only for the pumps?



American made https://www.keltecweapons.com/shotguns/ksg

Remington 870 police model for $249.

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/591057719

Mossberg 12Ga Pistol Grip 12GA 18.5" Shotgun
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/592588574

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-auto shotties
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:39 pm 
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Keltec 's are crap... and he doesn't want a pump

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-auto shotties
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:32 pm 
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I have that mossberg 500 flex and it's awesome because it is literally the only shotgun you need. It's a little more expensive than other pump-action shotties but I can literally go from home defense(tactical grip with short barrel) to bird hunting (non-rifled, 20" barrel, normal butt stock) to deer hunting (rifled barrel) in about 3 minutes. Granted you can spend good money on barrels and accessories but for about $700 you have all the shotguns you ever need.

As far as Pump vs. semi auto... Pump because most people believe your best defense is racking a round in the chamber. That noise alone is as good or better than a barking dog. I keep mine in a safe next to my bed and never a round in the chamber. IF someone gets in my house before I know they are there, or before they know I'm here, I'm probably going with my 9mm anyways. I want the shotgun to keep em' out.

I keep defense rounds in my shotgun which have both buckshot and discs. I have shot them at paper and they stay pretty tight so I don't think there is a huge advantage to em'.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-auto shotties
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:16 pm 
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TinStar wrote:
Pump because most people believe your best defense is racking a round in the chamber.

You still have to do that with a semi-auto and I think it's just as loud. It's just you're pulling back and releasing the bolt (as on a rifle) to chamber the first round instead of doing the same thing with the pump action.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-auto shotties
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:51 pm 
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It's just not the same. With a pump it's a more deliberate motion whereas the semi auto it's really just a slide and then a pop.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-auto shotties
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:25 pm 
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TinStar wrote:
I have that mossberg 500 flex and it's awesome because it is literally the only shotgun you need. It's a little more expensive than other pump-action shotties but I can literally go from home defense(tactical grip with short barrel) to bird hunting (non-rifled, 20" barrel, normal butt stock) to deer hunting (rifled barrel) in about 3 minutes. Granted you can spend good money on barrels and accessories but for about $700 you have all the shotguns you ever need.

As far as Pump vs. semi auto... Pump because most people believe your best defense is racking a round in the chamber. That noise alone is as good or better than a barking dog. I keep mine in a safe next to my bed and never a round in the chamber. IF someone gets in my house before I know they are there, or before they know I'm here, I'm probably going with my 9mm anyways. I want the shotgun to keep em' out.

I keep defense rounds in my shotgun which have both buckshot and discs. I have shot them at paper and they stay pretty tight so I don't think there is a huge advantage to em'.


I really like that idea without me having to hunt down 3rd party components. DId the one you buy include everything? I did a little search and not seeing one that comes with ALL of the stuff.
I also like that Mossberg is still family owned.

http://www.mossberg.com/category/series/500/500-flex/
Which one did you get? I didnt really want one with camo, it would be home defense and if i ever get into or invited hunting then being able to use it would be cool

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-auto shotties
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 8:28 pm 
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This is exactly what I purchased (I don't think they make this set-up anymore but there are similar ones out there)

http://www.gandermountain.com/modperl/p ... i?i=710503

There are tons of Mossberg brand add-ons you can buy and the butt-end changes without a tool. The barrel screws on and off and can be a pain in the butt without a pair of pliers but it's still like a 5 minute job max to change everything out. I found the collapsible butt-stock with pistol grip at Academy. Barrels range from $80-160 for the most part and then you can change the chokes out to whatever you want on the non-tactical barrels. It's a good gun but there are definitely better guns out there. I just personally don't have the room to have 5 different shotguns(or the $$).

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-auto shotties
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:13 am 
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As someone who is clueless about guns, what is the advantage of having a pistol grip for home defense over a standard stock? Mobility?


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 Post subject: Re: Semi-auto shotties
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:16 am 
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The cool factor? Pistol grip just makes the gun easier to move in and out of tight areas and gives you a firm hand hold on the gun with your trigger finger in a shooting position.

Shooting a shotgun with a standard pistol grip, royally sucks balls though. You don't want to do it.. Although in a defense situation I'm sure adrenaline will take over but in the 2 rounds I put through mine with slugs at the gun range, it is not fun at all(granted, shouldering a 12 gauge with slugs isn't super comfortable either...)

The tactical grip has a buttstock and a pistol grip so you can still shoulder the gun but have a good hand hold with your finger in a good shooting position.

Honestly I don't really feel that it's that much of an advantage anyways. If I have a shotgun that I am using for home defense, I am probably ok with any combination. But putting a tactical grip and a tactical rail makes you feel all tactical and that's all that really matters anyways right?

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-auto shotties
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:42 pm 
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Pistol grips make them more dangerous, or so says some states like NY and CA.

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