Caprica

[Jakensama]

(But I get your point, Kirk was no drunken cry baby)

Kirk also never had the enterprise falling to pieces knowing that its occupants were pretty much the last members of his spieces alive.

Nor would I be sure if Kirk is stoic, isn't being a shameless poonhound not an aspect of the stoic school of thought.

[Dustie]

(But I get your point, Kirk was no drunken cry baby)

Kirk also never had the enterprise falling to pieces knowing that its occupants were pretty much the last members of his spieces alive.

Nor would I be sure if Kirk is stoic, isn't being a shameless poonhound not an aspect of the stoic school of thought.

true that

[OrsunVZ]

Captain James T. Kirk... T stands for 'Tang... I'm sure of it.

[Vllad]

Who would you rather have on your side in a bar fight or follow into battle. John Wayne, Dirty Harry or some babbling cry baby sobbing in his oatmeal.

That is the only question you need to answer when writing for a show about the human race trying to survive.

If you chose the babbling sobbing oatmeal guy that is a reflection of just how out of touch and girly the writers are.


Vllad

[OrsunVZ]

Exactly... give me the damn bad asses! Just make sure to throw in some intelligence. I can;t stand muscle head action heros... BORING !!!!!

[Slamz]

Kirk still fits the bill in the sense that we are trying to come up with characters who don't suffer emotional breakdowns on some regular basis. Even Angel (from the Joss Whedon show) had his breakdown moments. It actually kind of gets old after a while. I tire of people crying into their cereal quicker than I tire of stoicism, probably because so many shows have criers but so few manage to hold together a single stoic character for more than a season. They always come up with the idea that it would be better to turn him into a slobbery mess for a while (or, as in BSG, for the entire rest of the show).


The nice thing with a stoic character is that when they DO finally show emotion, it stands out more. It really stood out when Adama, Mr. Cool and Collected, got angry. But they way overdid his emotional responses later, as we've discussed.

By contrast, Baltar, Mr. Can't-Hold-His-Shit-Together-For-Five-Minutes was just a boring, aggravating character. He was the opposite of stoic. Baltar heavy episodes were always the ones I hated most. I was constantly hoping he would go over to the cylons or just become evil or DIE or something so we wouldn't have to deal with him anymore.

BSG is really the king of undermining characters. I don't think a single show has ever undermined so many characters.



Actually, a good example of a show with a lot of stoic characters is probably Babylon 5. Except for Deleen, whose emotional breakdown caused like 2 billion deaths and always seemed on the verge of tears on any day of the week. Sheridan was pretty stoic, as was Ivanova. Gerbaldi mostly was, except when he went on a drinking binge.

[Dustie]

If we're talking stoic, I have the ultimate.

Scott Glenn in Silverado. That was stoic. Kirk, Wayne, etc, not even close to that character.

[Slamz]

Or the Seven Samurai, or the American adaptation, the Magnificent Seven. Part stoic, part crazy, part cantankerous.


It amuses me, in an I-am-right-and-Jake-is-wrong sort of way, that when you start talking about good, stoic, solid characters, you're mostly talking about the good old popular classics, or wildly famous movies like Braveheart.

Modern Hollywood writers may have really upped the ante on creating "realistic" characters with full ranges of emotion but it turns out nobody cares about that shit and their movies and shows flop while the classics endure.

[Jakensama]

What classics? John Wayne movies are shit, magnificent seven is an okay adaptation, I suppose. Unforgivens the only really good 'stoic character' movie I can think off of hand, I suppose Braveheart too. Firefly and Deadwood are the only series I think of with them off hand, but its not like most of the world is looking back longingly on Spaghetti Westerns or goofy Space Opera.

I also don't think statistically shows with characters that are more than 2 dimension cardboard cutouts are 'flopping' consistantly or because of that reason. BSG certainly wasn't a flop.

Theres also a time and a place for cardboard cutouts of characters. I never expected character development out of action shows, but BSG was set up as a mix between sci-fi and drama from the very beginning.

[OrsunVZ]

meh, the pendulem swings, and I think we've gone a tad too dramatic. John Wayne is a cardboard cutout. Swearengen was absolutely an AMAZING character with incredible depth, but I'd bet the guy wouldn't even eat a bowl of cereal let alone cry in one. Who says stiocism leads to shallow characters? Perhaps stoic is a misleading word as well. Really all I'm looking for is a dynamic, non-little-bitch, intellegent bad-ass. Thats not too much to ask.

Oh hey James Bond... The Sean connery version, or even Daniel Craig... maybe even moreso the latter.

Edit: In fact James bond is a perfect illustration of what an overly emotial dweeb does to a perfectly good series of movies.

[Jakensama]

James Bond movies are about as guilty as it gets for lack of character development or continuity. They are fun popcorn movies, not particularly good cinema. Except for Live and Let Die because young Jane Seymour was fucking hot.

And I liked Casino Royale, although Daniel Craig was much better in Layer Cake.

[Slamz]

What classics? John Wayne movies are shit

You're as disconnected from the population of the world as Hollywood is, then.

You have to at least understand how he got to be popular, and what about his character endeared him to the public. If you can't do that, then you're well on your way to being a writer for BSG.

BSG certainly wasn't a flop.

In 30 years, do you think Admiral Adama will be remembered like John Wayne is now? Maybe it's not a flop, but I seriously doubt it has the makings of a classic.

"Classics" appeal to the average person. Maybe you loath the average person but you have to at least be able to empathize with them, especially if you're a Hollywood writer and writing things people are going to like is actually your job.

[Jakensama]

John Wayne is a relic from an earlier time. I certainly appreciate his significane in broadcast history, but that makes him something on the road to development, not something that should necessarily be the standard to which fictional characters are held or modeled after. Shit, today most people who aren't old remember John Wayne as a person but none of his actual roles. I can't remember which John Wayne movies I've seen.

Will people remember BSG in 30 years? probably, they still remember the shitty version and thats pretty old. Will Adama be remembered like John Wayne? Of course not, it wasn't even a show that was on a channel watched by the general people.

The average person likes American Idol where as shows like the Wire, Arrested Development, Carnivale (there you go, Ben was pretty stoic and better written than any John Wayne character) struggle for viewers and go off the air. I am certainly not basing my opinion of what I see off of most of the lowest common denominator crap on TV. I have just been commenting on what I want to see and how BSG was marketed as a Sci-Fi Drama to begin with.

If we're going to empathize with the common man then you aren't going to see a whole lot of sci-fi and fantasy programming in the first place.

[Slamz]

John Wayne is a relic from an earlier time

Oh, I dunno.

A lot of it was cheesy, a lot of the production values were, of course, very low, but the character is not something I see as a relic. I believe it's a type of character people still prefer to see.


American Idol I mentally classify as a type of circus. Everyone loves the circus! It's not meant to tell a story, it's just meant to be a sort of entertaining variety show. That sort of thing is irrelevant to the discussion. When it comes to appealing stories and characters, the kind that will endure for decades and still make sales on Amazon in the year 2030, I'd pit John Wayne against cry-in-my-cheerios Adama any day. I'm sure modern writers would poo-poo over John Wayne, but in 30 years their shit will be forgotten and John Wayne will still be in people's video libraries.

[Jakensama]

Still be? I can't recall a single person my age whose video library contains John Wayne film. And I have lots of movies, including old steve mcqueen, casablanca, citizen cane, clint eastwood, so its not like I am adverse to the type of character in general either.

Once again, its unfair to compare the fame to one of the more prolific actors of an era to a character from a single series in a niche television network that shows mostly stargate reruns, wrestling, and shitty made for tv movies.

Maybe my kids will have some campy John Wayne rediscovery, but if they are going to go that route at least go some Rat Pack or Steve Mcqueen or something better than John Wayne.

[Vllad]

Maybe its an age thing.

If you think John Wayne in movies like Rooster Cogburn/True Grit, She Wore a Yellow Ribbon or Quiet Man are shit and not full of depth then the kind of men our kids today aspire to be is totally different today then when I was younger.

If I walked into a room and saw my commander crying on the floor I would punch in the arm and tell him to man the fuck up. Not only does crying and blubbering get you relieved of command good leaders of men have no business doing that.

If you are going to make a show about real men cut the babbling soft crap out and make it about real men. Babbling cry babies get section 8's and don't even make it out of basic training. They are called "Mama's boys"

Maybe we have raised a generation of mama's boys and now what we have is an entertainment system showing what mama's boys want to see.

More mama's boys.







God save us.


Vllad

[Dustie]

God save us. Vllad

AHA!

[Jakensama]

I don't want to see more people crying, I just don't think Adama having a breakdown is some huge defilement of his character or makes him a Mamas Boy

There are a few times in life when men can cry:

1) Genital Injury/Passing Kidney Stones
2) Your wife, child, sibling, or favorite pet dies
3) Your ship and crew are on the verge of disintigration and with it the survival of your entire species which has recently been in a nuclear holocaust instigated by creatures your father was involved with creating.

[Slamz]

If we're talking apples and oranges, Wayne and McQueen are in the same bin. So you see my point, you're just quibbling over the exact name of the actor. :-p


The real apples-and-oranges is something like this:

John Wayne, "The Searchers", Blu-Ray, Amazon Sales rank #964 in Movies and TV

"Redacted", Amazon sales rank #28,947

"Magnificent Seven", #1,978

"Casualties of War", #25,673


It doesn't seem to take long before Hollywood's latest and greatest has slipped down to the depths, but they re-release an old John Wayne movie on Blu-Ray and clearly someone is buying it. Magnificent Seven isn't even in a new format and it's still selling better than a lot of Hollywood's recent cry-in-the-cheerios attempts.

It will be interesting to see how Battlestar Galactica rates in sales 5 years after its release.

Incidentally, looking down the Amazon sales ranking for sci-fi shows, excluding shows that are recent (popular because they are new -- wait 5 years and see if anyone still buys them before we judge those), it looks like the top seller is actually Star Trek Season 1 on Blu-Ray (either that or X-Men, depending on if we're calling that "recent" or "apparently a classic"). After that is the Star War Trilogy, episodes 4-6.

Star Trek is as old as dirt, and now that it's out on Blu-Ray, people are lapping it up again. I wonder where it would be if Kirk was Adama.



Classics, man.

Crying in the cheerios might be "realistic", but it's destined for the dollar bin at the video store.

[Vllad]

1) Genital Injury/Passing Kidney Stones
2) Your wife, child, sibling, or favorite pet dies
3) Your ship and crew are on the verge of disintigration and with it the survival of your entire species which has recently been in a nuclear holocaust instigated by creatures your father was involved with creating.

1. If you cry while passing stones or getting kicked in the nuts you are a Mama's boy. If you scream that is fine but crying from an injury is something girls do.

2. This is an acceptable time to cry. However set your crying time a side. Do it in private if you have to. If you are on the job however you have no business crying about your dead wife and kids. Call in sick but don't go to work and start crying. Men don't do that.

3. You have no business crying when you are trying to save the human race. If you start crying while trying to do that you need to be shot and/or relieved of command. You suck it up and do what other soilders have done the entire history of man kind. You man the fuck up and do your job. When the job is done and man kind is saved if you want to cry go do it in the dark.



The crying Adama does ruin the show completely.


Vllad

[Dustie]

1) Genital Injury/Passing Kidney Stones
2) Your wife, child, sibling, or favorite pet dies
3) Your ship and crew are on the verge of disintigration and with it the survival of your entire species which has recently been in a nuclear holocaust instigated by creatures your father was involved with creating.

1. If you cry while passing stones or getting kicked in the nuts you are a Mama's boy. If you scream that is fine but crying from an injury is something girls do.

2. This is an acceptable time to cry. However set your crying time a side. Do it in private if you have to. If you are on the job however you have no business crying about your dead wife and kids. Call in sick but don't go to work and start crying. Men don't do that.

3. You have no business crying when you are trying to save the human race. If you start crying while trying to do that you need to be shot and/or relieved of command. You suck it up and do what other soilders have done the entire history of man kind. You man the fuck up and do your job. When the job is done and man kind is saved if you want to cry go do it in the dark.



The crying Adama does ruin the show completely.


Vllad

Amen brother

[Jakensama]

It will be interesting to see how Battlestar Galactica rates in sales 5 years after its release.

About 4 years after its release it is #204 on Amazon

http://www.amazon.com/Battlestar-Galacti...303&sr=8-1

And if anything ruined BSG it was the last 30 minutes of the last episode.

[Slamz]

About 4 years after its release it is #204 on Amazon

Yeah....season 1 was great!

For one thing, Adama wasn't a sissy.


When did he turn into a huge bag of blubber and tears, anyway? Season 3, I guess? I recall him still being The Man through the whole Pegasus saga ("I'm getting my men back!", say Angry Adama. If it was the 4th season Adama, he'd have cried and refused to leave his room during the Pegasus drama.)

[Vanraw]

All you guys need to get in touch with your sensitive side.

[Veraphim]

I have a sensitive trigger finger on my right side.