Pathfinder: Kingmaker

[Dharus]

I have a evil cleric in plate who summons. Jaehiel is also in my group and acts as an off dps buffer. Judgements, spontaneous spells and a power attacking scythe she is just as good as the barb especially her natural immunities. Diversity is still winning out though in my evil play through. Buffed up fights plus summons have been easy. The surprise fights hurts.

The key to magus is touch attacks and damage wands but they are glass cannons. Hard to work well in close with AI and RNG.

[Vllad]

On a side note, how close do you have to be to be considered "adjacent to an ally with the feat"?

Melee/Touch range.

[Vllad]

I was telling Slamz about the Monk tank build and didn't have a chance to look at all the Monk classes well.

Primarily you make Aasimar Monk (only race that gets the 2 plus 2's you need, plus resist), I suggest Sensai or Regular Monk. You pump their Dex and Wis up to both 18. Their AC is based on your Wis and Dex bonuses so at level 1 that is +8 which is equal to half plate at level 1. Their are multiple plus Dex/Wis items in the game, you should be able to get that Dex/Wis AC bonus up to +14 without any other arm bracers or rings. That is higher than any plate class can achieve.

Scaled First monk is same as above but Char/Dex based. Their are less Char/Dex items in the game so I am not sure you can max out the AC on him as high as a Dex/Wis monk.
Traditional Monk I don't like since the skills are all pre-chosen.

Sensai is an interesting choice since they now operate as a Bard.
The Standard Monk however gets more avoidance and evasion than a Sensai so if you want to build a tank the Standard Monk is better.

Either way not an easy choise between Sensai and Monk.

Now for DPS,

You can leave them at their build but the problem with Monks is their attacks are based on STR not Dex. So unless you also build up their str they will have weak DPS and not hit very often. 3 18 plus stats is not likely.

Their is a fix to that.

Start your primary character as a Monk. Then immediately take 3 levels of Rogue (not knife master, thug or Eldritch), at level 3 Rogue you take Finesse Training as Unarmed. After that you take the rest of your levels as Monk. That now makes all unarmed attacks now based on Dex. You will see an immediate change in DPS.

So it takes a while to get him going however once you do Monks can DPS well, stun, are VERY hard to hit, move fast, and can pull better than any other class.

Most importantly now your Rogue guy IS your tank. If you go Sensai, you get a Rogue, Bard and Tank all in one guy. Even though you are only taking 3 levels in Rogue that is enough if you continue to put points into Trickery, Stealth and Perception that he will satisfy all Rogue needs.

So when you engage in an encounter your main Tank sneaks up to the target and lays down multiple sneak attacks (if it isn't dead by then) now your main tank has complete agro. Send in the rest of your party afterwards. It makes tanking so much easier. No more running in and getting shots of opportunity on your tanks. That is what typically kills them or gets you in a situation you can't heal out of. Monks/Rogues can negate most shots of opportunity with their skills. So having 6 guys on him no longer hurts as bad.


I hope that helps with a proper tank. The other alternative is Invul Rager Barbs but that is another page altogether. Rather than write it out, Every group should have a Aasimar Invul Rager wielding 2h Axes, just try one and you will immediately see the potential as tanks as well as DPS.

Monks tank everything equally well but are still vulnerable to Crits, Invuls Ragers tank less well than Monks but no damage including crits ever hit them that hard. Take your choice, one if each is even better.

With a properly built Monk you can play the rest of your party however you wish. Even all pure casters, Monks get free movement and speed so you could dot the landscape with vines and webs and your tank still doesn't care. Once you have a well built Monk you are free to play the game however you like.

That to me is why you have to have one in your party.

[Slamz]

I should look more at long weapons. I gave my barbarian a glaive (same 3x crit damage as a 2H axe) and with the reach he ends up standing behind the monk. I don't think there's any penalty for people getting inside of his maximum range either? Makes it somewhat easier for him to get into the fight especially in tight areas or when it gets crowded....

This time I rolled 2 monks (1 "monk", 1 "traditional monk" mainly to compare the two), 1 barb invuln rager, 1 evocation wizard, 1 conjuration wizard and a cleric. Originally I was leaving the traditional monk behind and bringing Linzy but 2 low level wizards basically sucks so I left the evocation guy home instead. I figure he'll come into his own more later. The conjuration wizard gets pretty ridiculous fairly quickly as he can summon an entire army of animals by himself now. My cleric can summon undead. Linzy can summon monsters as a bard too. I have won some fights with both tanks on the ground just because I swarmed the field with monsters. They aren't very good but it's not hard to have a dozen of them out.

Monks also make nice tanks because their high dex gives them good reflex dodge odds for defending against AE. Maybe fighters come back into their own eventually from being able to have a special shield, special sword and special suit of armor but it's a high dollar fighter that can compete with a monk.

And definitely monk/rogue is nice. It's nice that your front line fighter is also the guy who can detect and disarm traps, not to mention sneak up on people and deliver sneak attacks.

[Dharus]

I should look more at long weapons. I gave my barbarian a glaive (same 3x crit damage as a 2H axe) and with the reach he ends up standing behind the monk. I don't think there's any penalty for people getting inside of his maximum range either? Makes it somewhat easier for him to get into the fight especially in tight areas or when it gets crowded....

This time I rolled 2 monks (1 "monk", 1 "traditional monk" mainly to compare the two), 1 barb invuln rager, 1 evocation wizard, 1 conjuration wizard and a cleric. Originally I was leaving the traditional monk behind and bringing Linzy but 2 low level wizards basically sucks so I left the evocation guy home instead. I figure he'll come into his own more later. The conjuration wizard gets pretty ridiculous fairly quickly as he can summon an entire army of animals by himself now. My cleric can summon undead. Linzy can summon monsters as a bard too. I have won some fights with both tanks on the ground just because I swarmed the field with monsters. They aren't very good but it's not hard to have a dozen of them out.

Monks also make nice tanks because their high dex gives them good reflex dodge odds for defending against AE. Maybe fighters come back into their own eventually from being able to have a special shield, special sword and special suit of armor but it's a high dollar fighter that can compete with a monk.

And definitely monk/rogue is nice. It's nice that your front line fighter is also the guy who can detect and disarm traps, not to mention sneak up on people and deliver sneak attacks.

I usually just "enlarge" my barbarian and that works for range plus it adds strength which does well when using two handers.  As for frontline guys, Valerie still works but it really is the encounter dynamics that mess me up.  That said, I've had no real problems that a save, reload hasn't stopped.

[Vllad]

I don't find the fighter class is really ever that useful. If you can find a way to still get dex bonuses wearing heavy then maybe but they just don't get the AC that a monk and other Dex/Insert Attribute here classes get.

Fighters don't DPS as good as a Zerker and don't defend as well as Monks, Rogues and Heavy Zerkers so... the class just doesn't have enough defining qualities.


Now that you have had time to compare the Monk's what is your findings?

[Dharus]

I don't find the fighter class is really ever that useful. If you can find a way to still get dex bonuses wearing heavy then maybe but they just don't get the AC that a monk and other Dex/Insert Attribute here classes get.

Fighters don't DPS as good as a Zerker and don't defend as well as Monks, Rogues and Heavy Zerkers so... the class just doesn't have enough defining qualities.


Now that you have had time to compare the Monk's what is your findings?

Armor training adjusts the dex bonus also mithril armor.  Valerie gets missed a lot except of major bosses.  Fighters are still good and Valerie with a tower shield is an AC beast.  The negative is your to hit suffers until higher levels.

Fighters are very buildable to whatever. You can make a high dps fighter going power attack twohander, sword and board tank, or ranged dps. It's heavily dependent on feats and they get a ton.

[Slamz]

Thing is, monks are AC beasts too. In MMOs you tend to have "dodge tanks" which have no mitigation and then "mitigation tanks" which get hit a lot but mitigate most of the damage away. In D&D every tank is a dodge tank. Armor doesn't actually mitigate. Monks get the same dodge advantage while naked that fighters get while wearing full plate, and that's the only benefit full plate gives you. You can load Valerie up with AC but you can do the same thing on a monk just by not putting armor on him. (Give him +protection gear, still. And a +WIS hat is more AC for a monk.)

Fighters should really get some DR. It really isn't clear what their advantage is supposed to be.

Another nice thing with monks is that you can pick up "Crane Style" early on, which means fighting defensively is -2 to-hit instead of -4. A little better odds of still dealing damage while in defensive stance.

[Dharus]

Thing is, monks are AC beasts too. In MMOs you tend to have "dodge tanks" which have no mitigation and then "mitigation tanks" which get hit a lot but mitigate most of the damage away. In D&D every tank is a dodge tank. Armor doesn't actually mitigate. Monks get the same dodge advantage while naked that fighters get while wearing full plate, and that's the only benefit full plate gives you. You can load Valerie up with AC but you can do the same thing on a monk just by not putting armor on him. (Give him +protection gear, still. And a +WIS hat is more AC for a monk.)

Fighters should really get some DR. It really isn't clear what their advantage is supposed to be.

Another nice thing with monks is that you can pick up "Crane Style" early on, which means fighting defensively is -2 to-hit instead of -4. A little better odds of still dealing damage while in defensive stance.

They do get DR.  It depends on the DnD system and I'm not as familiar with Pathfinder but I know if you use certain plate it gives DR.  Sometimes shield feats gave additional DR.  Monks are still very viable too it just a matter of preference.  I've always played Fighters as gadget monkeys.  They are all about items and feats.  Sometimes I dabble with use magic device with them or splash 2 rogue levels.  However, I think the stalward defender prestige class would also work.

In the end its all about your personal choice.

[Zouji]

If you want fighters to have DR and behave like in a MMO, then you have to play 4th edition D&D. Which is the exact opposite of Pathfinder. The people that play Pathfinder hated the balance of 4th edition. It didn't have the super munchi min/max classes that you could have in 3.x edition D&D. Supposedly, 5th edition D&D went back some to the munchieness of other D&D versions. I don't know though since I haven't played 5th edition. At least they haven't brought back THAC0 from 2nd edition, that and the terrible saves table.  


Personally I liked 4th edition. Everyone had special powers and the classes were much more balanced. It was still D&D though, so still rules heavy (not as much as 3rd edition). That and just like other versions of D&D, players and monsters get unwieldy after 10th level or so. You become much more likely to either kill everything or get killed brutally. So, not much of a middle ground. Granted that has been a problem in every edition of D&D. That is why most people play D&D for a while and then switch to a different system. 



I was very impressed with the Fantasy Flight Star Wars system, and their X-Wing/Tie Fighter miniature game. You could succeed at something while still causing more danger, or fail at something while still getting an advantage. It makes for much more interesting narrative scenes than the old, you just hit and do damage or miss. The Fantasy Flight generic system (Genesys) though requires a LOT of work to be playable in any setting. The Fantasy Flight Star Wars game you can play with just the core book and minimal effort.  

Personally, I'm waiting for the Cortex Prime system to come out. The superhero game I play in uses the Cortex Plus Marvel system. I really like that system. It is simple, streamlined, not rules heavy, and easy to work with and play. I know Vlad really likes the Savage Worlds rpg system for fight heavy games that use miniatures. For games that have little fighting and lots of roleplaying, their are nine trillion different versions of the FATE roleplaying system. 

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/530...laying-gam

[Slamz]

Actually I went back to an old save and looked at Valarie. Fighters do get more AC than monks by a fair margin.

I have level 4 Valarie at 29 AC with nothing extremely special gear-wise. +1 full plate, +1 tower shield, +1 from amulet, ring and bracer. AC is 29/27/13.

My level 5 monk is 22/17/21 with 20 wis and 20 dex, +1 ring and bracers (hat and belt are wis and dex items, amulet is +unarmed damage so I could get 1 more AC there if I used the same gear as Valarie).

Seems like more of a tradeoff. Valarie's damage is crap while the monk is a DPSer but Valarie has 7 more AC which is quite a lot and I could spring for the adamantine armor still.

[Zouji]

Just make sure the character doesn't get touched by undead or evil clerics. Those touch attacks can be very fatal.

[Dharus]

Actually I went back to an old save and looked at Valarie. Fighters do get more AC than monks by a fair margin.

I have level 4 Valarie at 29 AC with nothing extremely special gear-wise. +1 full plate, +1 tower shield, +1 from amulet, ring and bracer. AC is 29/27/13.

My level 5 monk is 22/17/21 with 20 wis and 20 dex, +1 ring and bracers (hat and belt are wis and dex items, amulet is +unarmed damage so I could get 1 more AC there if I used the same gear as Valarie).

Seems like more of a tradeoff. Valarie's damage is crap while the monk is a DPSer but Valarie has 7 more AC which is quite a lot and I could spring for the adamantine armor still.

A tower shielder's specialty isn't DPS though... it is straight tanking.  You also need to mind stacking.  A +1 natural armor doesn't stack on a +2 natural armor.  Only the +2 counts.  The same is with rings of protection and defection bonuses.  I remember dodge bonuses stack from 3.5 but I'm not sure about in pathfinder.  Also Bracers that add AC rarely stack with armored people.

I got well and good into Act 3 but the summoning just didn't cut it in my book.  It did well in some cases but not in others.  By Act 3, I was burning spells so fast per fight it wasn't sustainable.  Part of it was my party makeup though as I was really light in DPS.

[Vllad]

A Fighter is the worst class in Pathfinder. Maybe 4th Edition but Pathfinder fighters suck. Not enough nuance and DPS that can be better achieved in another class. Pathfinder doesn't have enough stacking AC bonuses and fighters don't have enough mitigation to make them worth the play. This has always been the case until later D&D versions.

It really comes down to armor doesn't mitigate in D&D. You either get hit or you don't. The advantage of AC built by Dex/? is that AC comes with other resist AND mitigation. You simply can't ignore Reflex and other class straight up resist vs. a Fighter which receives nada for all that Str and Con.

If you are using a Fighter Tank by Act 4 or 5 in Pathfinder Kingmaker you are dying a lot and not progressing very quickly.

Basically why in the world would you ever play a Fighter over a Plate Barb or Invul Rager? That makes no sense. Mitigation plus high AC. Picking a fighter when you have a choice just means you picked poorly or don't understand the game mechanics.

[Vllad]

Actually I went back to an old save and looked at Valarie. Fighters do get more AC than monks by a fair margin.

I have level 4 Valarie at 29 AC with nothing extremely special gear-wise. +1 full plate, +1 tower shield, +1 from amulet, ring and bracer. AC is 29/27/13.

My level 5 monk is 22/17/21 with 20 wis and 20 dex, +1 ring and bracers (hat and belt are wis and dex items, amulet is +unarmed damage so I could get 1 more AC there if I used the same gear as Valarie).

Other than the trade off keep in mind that Valerie is pretty much capped out at that point. Their is very slightly better armor available but she is done for AC.

For a Monk he isn't even close. Their are +6 Dex/+6 Wis belts to be had, +6 Wis/Dex Head gear, +8 Bracer, and a variety of rings.

Basically because the AC is based on attributes vs. armor you have more slots that you can upgrade. The basic failure in D&D.

[Maren]

I am now into chapter 3, and still doing well with Valerie, my Divine Protector Paladin main, Amiri, Linzi, an Animal Druid, and a Ranger. (I am lvl 8-9) Both my pally and Valerie have 30-33AC + DR gear. I found a named Paladin full plate armor in the Dwarven ruins, and some named dwarven heavy shield for my Pally. My pally also has his Armor aura going (and my Charisma is currently 22) and I bought the 3DR +1 adamantium full plate from a vendor for Valerie. They both do not get hit very often (but touch attacks still hit like trucks).

[Slamz]

Part of it was my party makeup though as I was really light in DPS.

Yeah I'm thinking you need 1 really good AC tank (30+ AC) and the rest should largely be DPS or DPS/off-tank like monks.

I had to go get Valarie last night for this warg fight I just could not beat at my current level. The monk 21/22 AC wasn't cutting it and I hadn't spec'd my barbarian for shields. The summoned monsters weren't much help either because they just died too fast.

I think I can move my barbarian a little more towards tanking and use him to AC tank when needed and not need Valarie anymore though. The monks (or monk/rogues, really) make short work of typical encounters but when you get that occasional encounter with the unusually high attack roll heavy hitter in there, you need a massive AC tank.

But for most fights, all that DPS and "pretty good" AC means I wipe through most things without much need for heals.

[Skelas]

I found level 7 was a significant jump for a conjuration specced wizard with both summoning feats. at that level you can summon 1D3 monitor lizards, which works out to 2-4 of the little bastards, and those things are significantly tougher than their predecessors. You also have access to stoneskin, which is a lifesaver. It has a component to it of 5 diamond dust so there is a monetary cost, but Jhod sells as much as you need. I've been running a merc Pally as my MT and he has been doing OK. Question about Monks, doesn't their AC bonus go up as they level? I remember that from 2nd edition, but have no idea if it's the same. If that's the case they might just be late bloomers as MT.

[Maren]

The developers have an unhealthy obsession with owlbears

[Slamz]

Question about Monks, doesn't their AC bonus go up as they level?

It does but it's very slight. They mainly get it from WIS/DEX bonuses. You really need a heavy armor shield guy for some of these encounters because monk AC just won't cut it.

[Vllad]

Question about Monks, doesn't their AC bonus go up as they level?

It does but it's very slight. They mainly get it from WIS/DEX bonuses. You really need a heavy armor shield guy for some of these encounters because monk AC just won't cut it.

Have you equipped him well? My monk is 7 AC above a fully optimized standard melee.

Some items to consider, don't forget to take Nok Nok with you to do the Goblin Fort quest. You get a 4 AC 4 Dex helmet only IF Nok Nok is in your party, you have a 35 perception check to get a 2 wisdom 4 ac ring from the Fey lands near the dove bird and you have a +4 Dex boots if you are evil and convince the pearl lady to be captured by the second stag lord. My game with my Monk is not evil so I don't have that item either.

[Maren]

 You get a 4 AC 4 Dex helmet only IF Nok Nok is in your party

damn it

[Dharus]

The developers have an unhealthy obsession with owlbears

lol is there such a thing?

[Zouji]

Come on. It is a mix between an Owl and a Bear. How can you not love that?

[Vllad]

The developers have an unhealthy obsession with owlbears

lol is there such a thing?

Ahh, you must not have run into them yet. You will know when you come to that part. They kick the shit out of you.