Biggrol. Lets fire up the politicts. Vlondril you out there?

[Vanraw]

Ok Big, lets see if I can get lour liberal political neck hairs to stand up.

For those of you new to this, there is an old game some of us from EQ VZ used to play. Its called political debate. I’m a middle of the road conservative / Liberal, depending on the subject.



Lets start this one with a discussion on the immigration protest across the USA right now. First of all, America is a country founded on immigration. I’m a second generation American since my grandparents on both sides came here from Europe in the early 1900’s. The Mexican population coming over the boarder to America have similar motivations as the Irish, Chinees, Europeans, etc etc that have come before them. For the most part, its economic.

Hispanics come over to work so they can feed their families. I don’t think most Americans realize what poverty, mixed with a rumor of will good paying jobs will do to a person. Have any of you read the “Grapes of Wrath”? If you haven’t you need to. It’s a story of a Oklahoma family that has to make a choice of starving to death, or chasing a promise of hope into California for what is suppose to be good paying jobs. But there aren’t any. Just a lot of greedy people who want to take advantage of a the plight of peole to get labor at prices that wont even feed a family.

The 11 million or so illegal immigrants in America are like the Joad family. They are chasing a dream created by a rumor invented from someone who is going to profit from their plight.

But in America, hope and hard work can become fulfilled dreams. It is the foundation of what made us strong. Its what built our railroads and agriculture strength. There are 100’s of millions of Americans that are not decedents of the founding fathers, but of immigrants that came to this country and built a future filled with hope.

But….. something has gone wrong with the system. Mexican Immigrants are protesting in our streets and waving.... are those Mexican flags??? Entire communities including public schools only speak Spanish. An American citizen who only speaks English would feel as if they entered another country.

More and more people are entering the country with the intention of sucking money from the American fat cow and leaving. Not making America a home. Not becoming a citizen. Not to Make America a better place. Young women jump over the border to have a baby delivered for the sole purpose of having duel citizenship and getting welfare medical benefits.

Something is broke. This is not what was intended. This is a good thing being abused.

Sooo, what do I think would need to be done.

First and foremost…… Make English the official language of America. If we do not do this, we will have a broken society in 20 years. None of our schools should be teaching children primarily in Spanish. In communities where the population of Hispanics is large then the school system should adopt English teaching as a priority. Our elementary schools should be teaching Spanish to all of our children as a secondary language. This will make America stronger, but having two societies in America separated by language is dangerous and wrong.

Second. Make is easier for people to come to America and work. Open the borders, dont close them. No human that wants to come to America to work and live should be considered illegal. Security aside (that’s a whole other subject) if a Mexican or south American wants to come to America and work towards being a contributor to soscity, then they should be allowed to come. They should pay taxes and get earnings at the minimum levels we set for all Americans. Make it legal and controlled and you stop the problem.

Third…. Help Mexico become stronger. A strong Mexico economy is our best friend.

Forth. Make the penalty for people brokering humans for illegle labor 10 times more stiffer. If your trafficking in humans for labor you should go to jail for life, because you probably impacted more years of peoples lives then you have left.

Fifth….. Annex Mexico, Umm I’m just kidding, I’m tired. Ill add more later.

[Biggrol]

Man don't be taunting me like this Im heading out of town at noon for the weekend, so I don't have alot of time today. But you can be sure I WILL be back to write a long winded post

PS Sunim is still active if you ever want to log on to EQ :twisted:

[Biggrol]

You spoke well from a societal perspective. From a political perspective, this is going to be very interesting subject. I think it will have consequences for the Republican party. Especially in the House they are driving this issue to hard. Why is this an issue? Basically two reasons. First your talking about this means your not talking about Iraq. Second, I believe Republican think this is a way to recapture the "We are tough on Security" issue.

But looking at the House plan I have to shake my heads. Bill Frist says we need to know who is in our country. But making it a Felony offense is suppose to make people willing to come forward? Build a fence must be the answer. Didn't they just find a tunnel under the border that was like a highway. The wall won't even go across the whole border. Who is going to patrol the wall? What about people going around the wall over the waters, whats the plan to stop them? What about the northern border. The only terrorist coming across the border that im aware was up in Washington State. Its not about security. Last time I checked I didn't see a large population of Muslim living in Mexico, Canada on the other hand does have those population. I would think that the northern border would be a much greater risk for terrorist to cross on.

The other great idea you hear is, "They should all be required to be shipped out of the country and made to legally reapply". I live in Minneasota and the airline I work for actually has done work for the INS in deporting people. We aren't like San Diego we just can't load people on a bus and an hour later drop them off in Mexico. Its estimated that we have 200-300k in illegals in Minneasota. We fly up to 173 total passengers on our planes. You do the math how many flights will that take and who is going to pay that cost. How and who is going round up this countries 11 million illegals? Who is going to pay that cost? Where are we going to hold these people until we can get them deported? What court is going to conduct these hearing, the immagration court is already over burden?

I could go on with other problems and unanswered questions to the Republican plan. When you cut to the end of all this, its election year politics of trying to prop the Republicans up as tough on something that really isn't an issue to the vast majority of American. Most polls show that issue garner about 7-8% of people believe this issue is important. They like the Republicans tough talk once this becomes an issue. But I bet if you asked people if they were willing to pay higher taxes to really make this plan happen you would get a resounding HELL NO.

What do the Republican really want out of this issue. Pass a immagration crime bill. Do a few perp walks maybe hit an employer in California sinse they can't win there in 08 and give them a Were Tough on Security Issue" going into the mid-term election, because they need something to counter there botched handling of the Dubai Ports deal. If the ports deal hadn't happened you would never have seen this issue come up. But they figure they can make this into a single issue vote getter that will out weigh any of the lost Latino vote. The places that they will lose votes in were places they couldn't win in anyhow.

What can really work. The stuff you talked about Van, I agree with you totally. Making it a Felony will not agarner participation. Having local law enforcement officials become Immigration Agents isn't a job they want and merely takes away there time from responding to crime an other emergencies. Give the people a path that can get them to a legal status. I agree especially about the English issue, make that a part of the deal. You want to be a citizen then become a part of the society. This is what will help security in the long run. The Republican plan isn't a real solution, its about scoring short-term political win.

[Vanraw]

...... I agree especially about the English issue, make that a part of the deal. You want to be a citizen then become a part of the society. This is what will help security in the long run. The Republican plan isn't a real solution, its about scoring short-term political win.

Holy crap, is that your ACL card I heard ripping? :lol:


So sunim is still active..... That is a taunt.

Might be interesting to see how all the worlds changed.

[Biggrol]

...... I agree especially about the English issue, make that a part of the deal. You want to be a citizen then become a part of the society. This is what will help security in the long run. The Republican plan isn't a real solution, its about scoring short-term political win.

Holy crap, is that your ACL card I heard ripping? :lol:


So sunim is still active..... That is a taunt.

Might be interesting to see how all the worlds changed.

Forcing immigrants to learn English will make them more capable of being a successful member of our society. Big Government should provide that for people (is that ACLU enough :wink: ). Really I think the fine they are talking could be used to support the cost of such a program. Plus talking to people with children in school districts with large immigrant population talk about the distractions of having children with interuptor in there classroom. Making people more successful is a good long term investment. Giving a helping hand today allows them to get better jobs, pay more taxes, there by lessoning my burden, and making them less dependant on social services. Small investment today better service us long term.

Then again proposing those kinds of changes don't allow your spurs to jingle and jangle like saying lets make this a Felony

[Jakensama]

Give the people a path that can get them to a legal status.

Okay, hate to intrude but since I will be TAing entry level government courses and grading poorly written papers by 17-19 year old children next semester, I am going to. After all, you can't appreciate really shitty papers unless you read discussion by people who grasp the English language.


The problem with this is that it tacitly says that the United States is not going to exercise its inherint right to regulate immigration. By giving amnesty to people who have been essentially breaking the law only because they have gotten away with breaking the law for a protracted time does not sit well with me, although the social and infrastructural ramifications of 'getting tough' on immigration are definately mitigating factors to my disgust at this idea.

One of the central problems I have with this is the message it is going to send - why bother coming to the country legally? I had a friend at UT for the 5 years I attended who was from Kuwait on an educational visa. He was a model member of the community and an excellent student, and when he graduated with honors from a Public Ivy university and didnt get a job right away he was forced to go back to Kuwait, despite his desire to stay here. Why are we sending away skilled and educated laborers but rewarding people who didn't even bother going through the proper, legal channels for immigration?

I also dislike the idea of giving health care to people who did not bother to immigrate legally when there are American citizens who do not have it. It annoys me to no end that illegal aliens in Texas can get in state tuition at one of the best public universities in the country, whereas a guy from Oregon has to pay 4 times as much.

Is there a solution? I don't think so in the near future, and this issue bothers me as I am torn between my libertarian ideals and my desire for some sort of social stability.

In conclusion, Maull sucks.

[Hoofhurr]

Arizona has serious healthcare issues because illegal immigrants get free health care based on the law that doctors can't turn away patients who can't pay for it. I see illegal workers everyday in a million different facets of my daily life here in Phoenix. The main issue with immigration is that we let it become such a huge issue that now there is no good solution. This speaks to another short coming of human civilization and that is our incredible inability to prevent problems. There is something about our psychology that responds much better to acute problems than the probability of them.

Illegal immigrants are now the base of our economic structure here in Arizona and to arrest them all and deport them would crush us. While they did commit a societal crime by living here illegally, it would be the lesser of two evils to give them citizenship and have them start carrying their weight as part of our society. We screwed up by ignoring the problem just as much as they did by taking advantage of the opportunity to better their lives. Now everyone has to pay for it.

[Flab]

I have the FINAL SOLUTION!



SOYLENT GREEN!


thank you.

[Scaerick]

I actually agree with Flabtard; I'm only kinda kidding.

[Biggrol]

Okay, hate to intrude

In conclusion, Maull sucks.

First, political debate is all about voicing opinions and your welcomed. Second Maul does suck

For me I a little wierd politically. Fiscal conservative, social liberal with a strong libertarian bend. I vote Democrat but wish I could vote Republican but they discust me to much to vote for them. There are a select few I would vote for but not until the Republican majority is removed.

This issue is not about fixing the problem unforunately. Its scoring political points and hopefully motivating people to make this a single issue vote. Republicans will talk the big game but they won't produce the results. Who isn't for more border security? I don't know anyone who isn't. But its like who doesn't want tax cuts? As long as it doesn't effect anything they care about. Who doesn't want to lock up criminals longer?

Then ask them that if there willing to pay more taxes or face cuts to there all important entitlement program to make these ideas happen and you get a resounding NO.

This is about controlling the debate like I said before. Republicans are trying to change the conversation the nation is having to subjects they are stronger in. A real solution is secondary. I don't think it will work like it has is the past. Iraq is out there and unless something drastically changes, which I can't see, it will still be bad. The economy as much as they trumpet it isn't very good for John Q. Citizen. GDP isn't a measure people use for the economy. They look at the balance in the check book at the end of the month and there 401k and make the call on the economy based on those factors. Nobody sits around the kitchen table and says, "Honey GDP was up 3 1/2% again last quarter, lets buy a new car". In the last 25 years we have had 17 years of Republican Presidents and not one budget they have purposed has ever been balanced. I think people are finally starting to burnout on the blame and excuses. Until I see a Republican President balance one budget they will have a very tough time ever getting my vote again. They are a great minority party to block the Democrats from going hog wild, but they have demonstrated quite clearly they spend money just as fast as Democrats but the big difference is they wrack up massive deficits in the process.

[Vanraw]

I think I’m beginning to disagree with some of these views. Although I know everyone is just jealous cause my axe is bigger then everyone else’s. Its a Envy thing I’m sure. :evil:


I agree Jakensama with your view on amnesty. I don’t agree with amnesty. Its been done before and frankly the more you do it, the more you tell people that all they have to do is wait for the next shot at amnesty. There is no motivation to do the right thing. Also previous attempts at Amnesty offers were not very successful because many of the illegal immigrants felt it was just an American Trap to catch them.

Also what Hoof talks about in AZ is the crux of the issue. On one hand we spend all this money on Healthcare to people who are not Americans nor trying to be Americans, on the other hand, how can a Doctor or a public Hospital turn away the sick and injured. They cant. When they do, They become the monsters.

I lived in Mexico for about 2 years in the mid 90's. When I went to the Mexican Consulate in Chicago to finish up my paper work, (Get a green card so I could work in Mexico) I saw this great poster. It was of a young woman with a child in her lap. She was dirty and worn. The captions said something like "being human isn’t illegal"

It made me think, but not in the way they intended. The reality is the people coming over the boarder know they are illegal. They know they are doing “wrong”. However, they are not bad people. They are trying to eat. I firmly believe if they had a way to come to America legally and work, most of them would jump at it.

The problem isn’t in the people coming over the border to work, but the fact that it is too difficult to be legal. “Bad people” take advantage of illegal situations that they know will still happen. People are trafficking in humans. Its allot like probation. Booze becomes illegal, and the next day its a making for massive illegal activity where bad people get rich. Legalize it and control it and you fix the problem. Put people who traffic in humans away with life sentences. Have immigrants come here and work and be paid / taxed like Americans. Have their children learn in English, teach them about American history and opportunity. Give them a way to become Americans.

We should pass stick laws to people who traffic in humans and to companies that hire illegal immigrants. There are already laws, but we should make the sentence so bad that businesses deem that using such labor is bad for business. Doing this would stem the motivation of the bad people. (If you guys haven’t, you really need to read “Grapes of Wrath”). It wouldn’t stem the motivation of good people. For them you need to prop open the door and come up with ways for them to come here and be American Immigrants, and nor illegal outcast. It could be done.

[Scaerick]

...how can a Doctor or a public Hospital turn away the sick and injured. They cant. When they do, They become the monsters.

I'm not sure I agree with this. Sure, it sucks to not help someone who is injured. But it's just enabling more of the same behavior. It's voluntarily accepting and endorsing immoral behavior out of a selfish wish to avoid feeling guilty.

Why is it okay for them to say 'screw the laws i want to feed my family' but wrong for you to say 'screw you you're stuffing it up my country's butt'?

Put em on a bus back to Mexico unless they're gonna keel over.

[Vanraw]

I'm just saying that most doctors or a nurses are not going to step over a guys haveing a heart attack on thier door step. Its just not in them.

[OrsunVZ]

heh come to Florida Maull )... heartless PHD's ftw...

I cant really offer anything to this coversation beyond saying that sometimes the companies hiring illegal immigrants are still contributing in a very meaningful way to American society. At risk of diverting this coversation to a completely new topic, there are many industries (particularly manual labor intensive ones) where American companies cannot compete - both domestically and internationally. Even in markets where competition is slim, the American populace assigns a value to certain services. That value equates to a price, and that price is completely unnattainable for most companies in these industries because they cannot achieve the economies of scale to make such projects profitable. As a result companies look for illegal immigrants who are willing to work for less to do the work. They in turn are able to fill America's need for such services.

I can honestly say many of these I.A.'s are ecstatic to have the opportunity to work for these reduced wages. They save their money, and spend wisely, and live happy lives. Meanwhile sulking, apathetic American blue color labor sucks on the collective tits of overly liberal union sympathizing politicians, whose policies artificially drive up the cost of living by not only spending frivilously, but also by driving up the cost of production due to massive inefficiencies. The cost of production inturn effects the price of the product to the consumer whose income is now being split between increasingly expense goods and services (this is a far more complicated situation than this brief discription can describe, but you get the idea).

People studying economic theory will tout that America has no business conducting business where we cannot be profitable, but the ramafications of that have not truly been recognized through theory, and it was something that never truly sat well with me during my studies because of its tremendous over simplification of real-world business. And in the very end it really doesn't matter, because business owners and management are concerned with one thing - the success of the business and in turn themselves. They don't care if some guy with a pocket protector tells them they have no business being in an industry. In the end these businesses aren't concerned about economic theory, they are concern with their own livelihood. Oh yeah and for clarification's sake I'm not talking about huge corporations aka evil empire here either, I'm talking about the small mom and pop to medium sized businesses - the so called bread and butter of the American economy. These guys aren't evil because they are using illegal labor - some might be, but that percentage is the same in any situation (some bad, some good. Always). The fact is the jobs being done by I.A. labor are ones our own domestic labor pool doesn't want to do.

If more Americans were aware of how far reaching the effects of having no illegal immigrants working in the USA would be, I think we would be rapidly adapting a "don't ask don't tell" policy when it came to immigration. I realize I am being very vague here, but I am lacking the energy/desire to fully research this view so you have some examples, so you're stuck with this...

The only thing that is for certain in this world is this: if there is a need for something, and a void is present due to existing conditions, people will attempt to circumvent those conditions to meet that need. Which is why I side with those that argue opening up a legal channel to immigrate, and to remove some of the retarded red-tape associated with it.



For the sake of arguement though, if America did create a more open-door policy, the sheer numbers of people who would try to enter the country could turn our economy completely on its head. How do you counter that?

[Tarnek]

Machine gun turrets?

[Dophuz]

All the people crying about not finding work or soaking up un-employment can round up these 11 million jackasses and drive em out of here.

Solves 2 problems.

[Snowreap]

We should pass stick laws

qft.

[Biggrol]

All the people crying about not finding work or soaking up un-employment can round up these 11 million jackasses and drive em out of here.

Solves 2 problems.

Made me laugh hard IRL

Orsun that was an interesting read.

In the real world, looks like we won't have a comprimise solution. Republicans are looking to hardline this issue to drag it into the election. Democrats were willing to compromise to remove it as an issue but that won't happen. Like I said this was never a problem looking for a solution, its a political issues to deflect from talking about the serious issues facing the country.

[Jakensama]

Made me laugh hard IRL

Orsun that was an interesting read.

In the real world, looks like we won't have a comprimise solution. Republicans are looking to hardline this issue to drag it into the election. Democrats were willing to compromise to remove it as an issue but that won't happen. Like I said this was never a problem looking for a solution, its a political issues to deflect from talking about the serious issues facing the country.

Sadly Biggrol, you are right. Both of these parties are a joke. We have real problems and all we get is grandstanding and deflection from real issues. Why am I hearing about some idiot congresswoman pushing police officers and yelling racism when there are real problems in this country?

[Biggrol]

As much as I bash the Republican's these days, I was so happy to see that idiots case go to a grand jury. She could have said sorry after she hit the cop and that would have been a 5 sec story. Now she will get a couple of charges and probably lose the Democratic primary because she tried to coverup her own mistakes by yelling racism. Servers her right IMHO. Like they say, its not the crime that gets you in politics its the covering up that get you in trouble.

Another example that will probably catch steam is the CIA leak probe. President said he want to find out who leaked the information and it turns out he authorized. Maybe they removed all the mirrors in the Whitehouse

[Jakensama]

Stupid duverger's law, keeping 3rd parties from getting in.

[Vanraw]

Good Read Orsun. You know the people that happy to work for low wages are the same people that would be happy to pay taxes and be legal. For that matter, they would be happy to become American citizens given the chance. Most anyway.

....

For the sake of arguement though, if America did create a more open-door policy, the sheer numbers of people who would try to enter the country could turn our economy completely on its head. How do you counter that?

This is huge topic for debate. For the most part the view is that this would be good for the economy. Keep in mind that these people would pay taxes that they are not paying now. They also buy stuff. They also provide a labor pool that would make America stronger, not weaker. There is allot of miss information out there when it comes to labor. Much of this is populated by the unions. (Unions are a whole other debate).

Economics is a funny thing and I’m far from being an expert. But expensive labor does not mean America is stronger, and cheap labor does not mean that companies are more profitable or America is weaker.

Ask your self a question. Why cant American car companies make cars in America and be profitable? Don’t say its labor cost, cause that’s just not true. If you doubt it, just look at Honda, Toyota, Mazda, etc etc and ask why they have moved their assembly plants to America, while American car companies keep moving the work to other countries. How can they build their cars here and be profitable? They do.

Its cheaper to make the car here then to make it overseas and ship it here. Then ask how come they continue to make cars that are better then American cars (I know I know that’s another debate), for Honda and Toyota its true. They use American Labor, in America, they are profitable, and have a superior product. Mean while, Ford and GM are on the brink of collapse.

I do know that when it comes to economics, its all about balance. The concepts of supply and demand are true not only for products for sale, but labor for hire. What would happen in Mexico if a large chunk of their labor force came to America? They would be forced to increases wages to be more competitive. Mexican based companies would have to compete to keep quality people. That would motivate some people to stay.

What would happen in America with an influx of immigrants making minimum wage? (Lets assume they can contribute to society and speak English). You never know, it might just stimulate American industry. Would it take away American Jobs? Maybe, but I think it would be more of an impact in the service industry. Would it push something like GM over the edge? No. Although the unions would certainly blame the problem they caused on immigration. You can be certain of that.

[Biggrol]

This is huge topic for debate. For the most part the view is that this would be good for the economy. Keep in mind that these people would pay taxes that they are not paying now. They also buy stuff. They also provide a labor pool that would make America stronger, not weaker. There is allot of miss information out there when it comes to labor. Much of this is populated by the unions. (Unions are a whole other debate).

Im not sure I agree with this view. I think labor unions as a whole are infavor of a guess worker program. I think unions see immagrants as there next potential union member. Will they fight against lower wages, of course that there mision, there reason for being.

Ask your self a question. Why cant American car companies make cars in America and be profitable? Don’t say its labor cost, cause that’s just not true. If you doubt it, just look at Honda, Toyota, Mazda, etc etc and ask why they have moved their assembly plants to America, while American car companies keep moving the work to other countries. How can they build their cars here and be profitable? They do.

Its cheaper to make the car here then to make it overseas and ship it here. Then ask how come they continue to make cars that are better then American cars (I know I know that’s another debate), for Honda and Toyota its true. They use American Labor, in America, they are profitable, and have a superior product. Mean while, Ford and GM are on the brink of collapse.

Love this comment. This is a prime example of why deregulation doesn't work. The argument in broad terms goes, deregulate industry because market forces will dictate companies to make changes. After 30+ years sinse gas prices spiked for the first time, Detriot still has failed to make the changes to there product to be globally or even in our own country competitive. 25 years sinse the rise of foreign cars in the American market, Detriot still gets beat on fuel economy. The only time Detriot raises there fuel economy on cars is when it get dictated to them by the Feds. Even though each time fuel prices rise there sales fall. They have had a bad economic model for decades, but refused to change it and workers will suffer the consequences for the failure while upper management, who shaped that failed model, will continue to get their bonuses and fully funded pensions.

In this whole debate what I have really enjoyed the politicans. Listening to Denny Hastert and Bill Frist tell me how it was the Democrats fault the bill didn't pass and that the felony language in the House bill was the Democrats fault was priceless. Really the grass is blue and the sky is green.

Excuses and blame is the only platform the Republicans have left. But don't worry we still have Gay Marriage, Flag Burning and Abortion all on the schedule for up coming events to blame the Democrats for why the Republicans (who control the Presidency, both House of Congress and appointed 75% of the Federal Bench) can't get things done. Really we should all vote for the Republican because this time they really do plan on doing the reform that they were elected to do back in '94. :wink:

[Vanraw]

Yea the debate has been funny. I also love some of the cartoons. I sawe one last week of a guy bulding the "wall" across the border. the caption read something like "Got another Brick Migual.... Si, here is one".... As he hands him a brick to build the wall.

On your union comment I dont agree that the unions purposew is to fight for higher wages and better working conditions. It use to be, but they turned into a business of labor. They only want thier .666 % of labor cost and for you to give up your right to bargin directly with your employeer.

[Biggrol]

Im no fan of unions. Worked in one shop when I was in college. No reward for working hard because of them, no thanks, been there done that never want to do it again. My point was, I believe unions see immegrants as there next resource for future members and there fore are in favor of a guess worker program. No way was I trying to defend them

I have been following the opinions column in our paper to view peoples reactions to this issue. Honestly, most people are idiots and use the most simple arguments put foward but have concept to how to accomplish what they want. They talk about border security, legality of illegals blah blah blah. But noone ever answers the tough question, especially the Republicans.

Who isn't in favor of better border security? But how you going to pay for the building of the wall? Why aren't you going to build a wall accross the whole border? Who is going to patrol the wall?

How does making illegal immagration a felony get people to come out of the shadows? If you make it a felony crime are we going to jail these people before we deport them? If we don't jail them how is that going to be a deterrent? How we going to pay to keep these people in jail, is it a state or federal responsibility. California, Arizona, Texas will all want to spread the bill around, but I live in Minneasota and why should I pay for there problem. We have to worry about the Canadian, eh

Who is going to round these people up? They appear to want to make it a local police issue. But police don't want the job and if there process illegal it means they aren't on the street responding to crime, drunken driving or emergencies. Plus they want people to report crime and get involved in solving crimes not worrying about providing a green card.

Answer those question if you want my support.