HBO - Game of Thrones SPOILERS INSIDE. you have been warned

[strife]

The dude in the middle (pictured below) when the Brotherhood talks to the hound group, is presumably Lem Lemoncloak... who just so happens to be the guy from the book that has the Hounds Helmet... This seems to be foreshadowing that the old Hound is returning, which the end of the episode also pretty much plainly shows.



Like was already mention, I wanted it to be the Brave companions as well, but I think the show is just using the brotherhood in order to get the hound his helmet back. Kind of fucks the reputation of the brotherhood though, which isn't the way I would have done it.

Fan theory inside the spoiler tag below
[spoiler]There is a fan theory that the hound is going to be who fights the Mountain in Cersei's trial by combat, which has been dubbed "Clegane Bowl". Not sure how Sandor is going to get back to Kings Landing, but that could be where this is going.[/spoiler]


And yea, I'm assuming Sansa letter is going to Little Finger. I think Little Finger honestly doesn't want to hurt Sansa and the hole Bolton thing was a mistake(he didn't realize how cruel Ramsay was), and I think he was honest with Sansa a couple episodes back when she talked with him at the wall. He's also made notion in earlier episodes(when he gave the boy the falcon), that the Vale's army was needed to help Sansa, so I definitely think that's what's going to happen.

[Vllad]

And yea, I'm assuming Sansa letter is going to Little Finger. I think Little Finger honestly doesn't want to hurt Sansa and the hole Bolton thing was a mistake(he didn't realize how cruel Ramsay was), and I think he was honest with Sansa a couple episodes back when she talked with him at the wall.

Everyone always paints Little Finger as some savant when it comes to playing the game. In the show he majorly fucked up with Sansa and he knows it.

I have no doubt she was writing Little Finger but eventually Little Finger is going to get his and I think it will eventually be from Sansa. Sansa will be his downfall. How ironic that Little Finger is showing up with an army just in time for the Undead to climb the wall.

[Jakensama]

I'd rather have him on the throne than that entitled idiot Dany.

[Zouji]

Honestly I think Varus the Eunuch spymaster would make the best ruler of Westeros. At least you wouldn't have to worry about him not being able to keep his dick in his pants.

[Vllad]

I'd rather have him on the throne than that entitled idiot Dany.

You really think Danny is going to make it?

[strife]

I'd rather have him on the throne than that entitled idiot Dany.

You really think Danny is going to make it?

Probably, I think if they killed her off, that would be by far the biggest main character death in the show.

It would be funny if someone like Little Finger ultimately ended up on the throne though.

[Vllad]

I'd rather have him on the throne than that entitled idiot Dany.

You really think Danny is going to make it?

Probably, I think if they killed her off, that would be by far the biggest main character death in the show.

It would be funny if someone like Little Finger ultimately ended up on the throne though.

Danny and Jon can't both be King. Someone has to go and Jon assuming what we think is true IS true is the actual heir.

[Skelas]

For me, this last episode was a trainwreck. Arya gets the ever living shit stabbed out of her, and a day later is doing Parkour, and then winning a 1 vs 1 with that little bitch assassin? I get that she supposedly 'evened' the odds by plunging them into darkness, but for christs sake are we to assume she was the only many faced assassin to go through the whole blind training regimen? I would expect every one of them had to go through that step.

then we have Riverrun. What the hell was the point of all that? Blackfish is dead, riverrun is retaken, this adds zero to the storyline. plus the whole Edmure storyline is ridiculous. They threaten to kill Edmure, and the blackfish just says "tough break kid" but there is zero outrage by the troops there. Then, just several days later, all of a sudden Edmure's word is the final word. What the hell, the Blackfish led those dickheads to retake riverrun, why would they just switch loyalty like that. Makes no sense.

[Zouji]

Probably because you are thinking like someone raised in a republic. The Feudal/Aristocratic system is the only rule of law they know. Edmund is the rightful lord of the castle so when he shows up he is the leader. The soldiers/common people have demonstrated time and again that they are mostly blindly obedient to whomever is supposed to be in charge.

[Vllad]

then we have Riverrun. What the hell was the point of all that? Blackfish is dead, riverrun is retaken, this adds zero to the storyline. plus the whole Edmure storyline is ridiculous. They threaten to kill Edmure, and the blackfish just says "tough break kid" but there is zero outrage by the troops there. Then, just several days later, all of a sudden Edmure's word is the final word. What the hell, the Blackfish led those dickheads to retake riverrun, why would they just switch loyalty like that. Makes no sense.

I can't even guess what the point of Riverrun is for the show but in the books it cements and confirms that Jamie is no longer a fan of Cersei. He leaves Cersei to rot after what happens in Riverrun. They certainly haven't done that for the show so who knows.

The Edmure thing doesn't really bother me that much. Historically their is precedence that while the lord is captured the troops will stand their ground and ignore a captives orders however once the their lord was free and at the gates he is their lord not Blackfish. Blackfish was the younger brother to Edmure's father. Blackfish is a knight but certainly not the lord of Riverrun. Their oath is to Edmure not the Blackfish. From the Captains perspective they very well might have taken Riverrun to get Edmure back.

In real feudal history this very same thing happened with King Richard. While Richard was being held his men had no fealty towards him however the minute Richard was ransomed his men followed his commands. This was quite common actually.

[strife]

I was completely expecting the Blackfish to run Edmure through as soon as he entered the gates, and then see what the reaction of the soldiers was then. He knew that they were fucked as soon as Edmure showed up at the gates. The only reason I see for this part of the story is to get characters in a specific place in order to further the story elsewhere, but I agree with what was previously said that this part of the story doesn't seem to do much.

As for the Hound... I was happy to see the way that turned out... so far, although I was completely expecting him to get his helmet from Lem, no boots.

As for Arya... I hate the whole slow walk villain bullshit that they do... reminded me of Halloween. I was kind of expecting Arya to kill Jaaken as well when she said "a girl is Arya Stark". Curious to see if he is involved in the story any longer.


As an aside... Tyrion says to Varys... "I'm the most Famous dwarf in the world", and it got me thinking... He's probably actually right... Peter Dinklage probably took the Vern Troyer helm as soon as he became Tyrion. Although the younger generation probably see that fuck from jackass as the most famous dwarf.

[Zouji]

The younger generation still watches Game of Thrones, so he probably is the most famous dwarf in the world everywhere. People all over the world watch Game of Thrones. It has really surprised me that so many people like the show.

[strife]

Well that was pretty satisfying. The smirk on Sansa's face as she walked out of the picture was perfect. I don't think anything that happened in this episode was unexpected though. The only thing that I wasn't sure about, was whether or not some of the North in Ramsay's army would turn, but they didn't. The outcome was the same though... I believe everyone expected Littlefinger to show up just in time to save the day.

I wish they would have unleashed Wun Wun more though... give him a big ass shield and/or weapon and he'd have way more of an impact. Them sending him out with just his bare hands was a waste. They pretty much made him insignificant in the battle other than bashing down the door of Winterfell.

On the other side, like expected, the herd and the dragons were unleashed.

[OrsunVZ]

I want to like this episode more than I do, BUT...


1) There was nothing I didn't see coming a mile away. No surprises.

2) I'm growing tired of the "stark" family being retarded and sacrificing everyone's lives for their own emotionally driven bad calls. Especially Wun Wun (Strife, I agree, give him a tree trunk or something). Just a stupid loss of life. But both Sansa and Jon are dumb, and I feel the show is betraying the nature of Jon at the very least by allowing his character to make such grand mistakes at this stage of development. But Sansa takes the cake - if she'd disclosed little finger's arrival, they might have even been able to save Rickon by delaying the battle and taking advantage of the "surprise" arrival of the Vale. But the whole "I'm a victim, you never asked me for MY opinion!" Well, you're practically Queen of the North you dumb twat, how bout you just OFFER it.

3) Ramsay needed to suffer more. Not more in the sense of physical pain. Being eaten by his own dogs was the obvious mode of death - it really NEEDED to end like that, but I wanted him to completely unravel first. Break him entirely. Beat him in every sense.

4) Sansa's smirk and Hollywood walk away - I swear the further we get from the books, the more "dramatic" and the less intelligent things seem to get. Firstly, to me, Sansa is not (and has never been) someone who derives pleasure out of violence, even if it is Ramsay. It just didn't seem to fit. I feel the progression of her character thus far would more likely lead to expounding on the whole "your house is finished" theme and just be more of a stoic response. I didn't expect her to turn away. That's not the Stark way. But the smirk... I dunno. Doesn't fit at all.

5) I think Wun Wun's treatment throughout the episode is probably what pissed me off the most. I just don't see him getting corralled the way he was. We could sit here all day and come up with a thousand things Wun Wun could, would, and should have done. And the physics of the arrow through his hand bothered the shit out of me. What's he made of, playdough?


I felt the episode was overall too engineered. Martin's books didn't feel nearly as forced. I heard this was the episode HBO is submitting for awards, and it probably should be, just not for writing. I feel they completely gave up story, logic, strategy, etc. in favor of the "drama" that certain scenes would visually convey. ie. wunwun's arrow shot hand, the illogically high piles of corpses that seemed to gather in a few seconds of fighting, the impossibly-last-second Littlefinger save - "oh we traveled the entire way from the Vale to Winterfell, and we arrived at the absolute last second!!!", even the trio of Jon, Wunwun, and Tormund, running up the hill after Ramsay... where the fuck were the guys standing RIGHT NEXT THEM a moment earlier?? Ah but the scene will look so much better with just the 3 of them running up the hill alone.

Dany's portion of the episode was far better by comparison. FAR better.

[Zouji]

Bodies can pile up very quickly in a brutal medieval battle. Very much so when you have cavalry dead in the spot as well.

Sansa has proven herself in this episode to be Little Fingers spiritual daughter rather than Ned Starks. From the scheming, to the with holding of information, and to the smirk at the end. By allowing Jon Snow to sacrifice his men and those of the other minor Houses, Sansa is now in a position of strength. Even if Jon Wanted to oppose her and claim Winterfell for himself, he just doesn't have the men for it.

The Wildling threat is now done with and virtually all of the soldiering men in the North are now dead. No one will be in any shape to fight anyone for at least a decade.

[Zouji]

With some men from the Vale, Sansa can effectively rule the North. Well at least until the white walkers show up. Them and the Nobility are why Westeros can't have nice things.

[Vllad]

Sounds like Orsun is mad that Wun Wun died!

He makes some great points though. A bit over the top but after Hardhome I have no doubt people are feeling the pressure of trying to out do the past which eventually just leads to Michael Bay scenes.

While I agree that Jon and Sansa are both idiots there were some epic parts to Jon's battle, the scenes with Jon dodging charging horses and lancers was pretty insane. My favorite part was the headless rider that fly's by Jon only to be stomped by Wun Wun. PETA should have a field day with that even if the horses aren't real! Jon ends up killing one of his own men in that scene.


The only parts that bugged me was Jon running off and the army allowing itself to be surrounded. I had to keep reminding myself that Jon's army wasn't really an army as much as a mob. This is also what happened at the Battle of Platea as the Greeks surrounded and slaughtered the Persians. I would scream as the Persians for allowing
themselves to be surrounded if I had to watch it as well.



Episodes like last night takes television to a whole new level even if there were some stupid parts to it. You aren't seeing anything else like it that is made for TV. Just put on Marco Polo or Vikings and do a side by side comparison and you tell me which is more epic. At this point Game of Thrones can only be compared to itself.

One of the things they did differently this time was they had two epic fights in one episode. Kind of hard to watch Jon's battle as epic when we just saw three Dragons burning boats.

Unlike Orsun I am completely satisfied with Ramsay's death. Having his jaw eaten was poetic justice. Most importantly Ramsay is dead!

So far season 6 has been very satisfying to me. However that will all change if Danny doesn't get on those damn boats and leave. Please no more Meereen!

[Vllad]

With some men from the Vale Sansa, can effectively rule the North.

You mean Littlefinger can. Sansa won't control shit when it comes to the Vale nor will the Vale stay unless Peter does.

[Zouji]

Littlefinger rules via proxy. Just like he rules the Vale. So only 5 more kingdoms and Little Finger will be king of Westeroes.

[Vllad]

Sansa's smirk and Hollywood walk away - I swear the further we get from the books, the more "dramatic" and the less intelligent things seem to get. Firstly, to me, Sansa is not (and has never been) someone who derives pleasure out of violence, even if it is Ramsay

I thought about your statement. I think at this point we no longer know Sansa. Clearly she isn't the same. She advised Jon the night before that Rickon was dead and to think otherwise is folly. She told Jon that Rickon would be used a pawn and would die in the process. She told Jon that he needs to accept this.

Those are words from someone far more hardened at this point. Your statement fits Jon way more than Sansa.

She has been raped, beaten and humiliated for years now by the two most villainous people in history of the show. Joffrey and Ramsay. It may have been a Hollywood walk away but is their anyone who deserves that more than Sansa? I can't imagine anyone NOT deriving pleasure from those deaths if they were Sansa.

[OrsunVZ]

Sansa's smirk and Hollywood walk away - I swear the further we get from the books, the more "dramatic" and the less intelligent things seem to get. Firstly, to me, Sansa is not (and has never been) someone who derives pleasure out of violence, even if it is Ramsay

I thought about your statement. I think at this point we no longer know Sansa. Clearly she isn't the same. She advised Jon the night before that Rickon was dead and to think otherwise is folly. She told Jon that Rickon would be used a pawn and would die in the process. She told Jon that he needs to accept this.

Those are words from someone far more hardened at this point. Your statement fits Jon way more than Sansa.

She has been raped, beaten and humiliated for years now by the two most villainous people in history of the show. Joffrey and Ramsay. It may have been a Hollywood walk away but is their anyone who deserves that more than Sansa? I can't imagine anyone NOT deriving pleasure from those deaths if they were Sansa.

Yeah I thought about that too. Has she changed that much? Maybe! And if so, I don't like the direction she's been taken as a character. Perhaps this is just part of her overall journey. Time will tell. Still though, being hardened vs. happy smirk?

Wun wun dying is not the issue. How he died, and how relatively ineffective he was, bothered the crap out of me. It's ridiculous to say that a Giant just isn't realistic enough, but yeah that's what I'm going with.

[Vllad]

Yeah I thought about that too. Has she changed that much? Maybe!

She lies, she is making plans behind peoples backs, she very well could be usurping Jon, she is certainly way more hard.

I think she is a product of her environment. She lived with shit for so long that now she has become the same shit herself. Isn't that GRRM all the way?

Jon's suffers from the same honor flaws as Rob and Ned (as seen in his poor leaderhip) and Sansa's lies pretty much line up the flaws of both methods right next to each other.

B&W don't write as well as GRRM but I think this is there attempt to do so. The only difference between them and GRRM is he would kill Jon for such behavior.

[OrsunVZ]

She lies, she is making plans behind peoples backs, she very well could be usurping Jon, she is certainly way more hard.

I think she is a product of her environment. She lived with shit for so long that now she has become the same shit herself. Isn't that GRRM all the way?

Jon's suffers from the same honor flaws as Rob and Ned (as seen in his poor leaderhip) and Sansa's lies pretty much line up the flaws of both methods right next to each other.

B&W don't write as well as GRRM but I think this is there attempt to do so. The only difference between them and GRRM is he would kill Jon for such behavior.

No doubt she's hardened. That's plain to see, it's logical, and it feels right. It's the smirk that irks. That said, there was a scene in next week's preview of Jon confronting her on presumably the withholding of information, and the lack of trust. Just like Dany having Tyrion's council as he recounts the Mad King, and drawing the parallels between him and his daughter, this may be one of those moments where the fine line between tyrant, and just-ruler is being defined. There is an undercurrent speaking to this throughout the series. So depending on what they do next week, my issues with the episode could somewhat be dealt with.

I think you're on to something though. The juxtaposition of Sansa and Jon, exposes the two of them with their flaws and perhaps this becomes a transformative moment for both of them moving forward. EDIT: and perhaps this is the kind of thing that both of them need to come to grips with in order to deal with the army of the dead and have any hope of surviving.

In the end, all of this I'm good with. It's 'how' these themes were presented, much more than 'what' was presented. It just felt very ham-fisted in its delivery. It feels overly contrived. Still, I will rewatch it. And I absolutely think the success of the Hardhome episode is a double-edged sword... there may be something to that. And I should preface the whole statement by saying the series is still the best thing on TV perhaps ever, so my criticisms should be taken in that context.

[strife]

Yeah I thought about that too. Has she changed that much? Maybe!

She lies, she is making plans behind peoples backs, she very well could be usurping Jon, she is certainly way more hard.

I think she is a product of her environment. She lived with shit for so long that now she has become the same shit herself. Isn't that GRRM all the way?

Jon's suffers from the same honor flaws as Rob and Ned (as seen in his poor leaderhip) and Sansa's lies pretty much line up the flaws of both methods right next to each other.

B&W don't write as well as GRRM but I think this is there attempt to do so. The only difference between them and GRRM is he would kill Jon for such behavior.

Yes she's changed that much.

I'm not sure Jon is going to be as "honorable" now that he was murdered by the Nights watch. I think that changes him as well

[Breand]

Yeah I thought about that too. Has she changed that much? Maybe!

She lies, she is making plans behind peoples backs, she very well could be usurping Jon, she is certainly way more hard.

I think she is a product of her environment. She lived with shit for so long that now she has become the same shit herself. Isn't that GRRM all the way?

Jon's suffers from the same honor flaws as Rob and Ned (as seen in his poor leaderhip) and Sansa's lies pretty much line up the flaws of both methods right next to each other.

B&W don't write as well as GRRM but I think this is there attempt to do so. The only difference between them and GRRM is he would kill Jon for such behavior.

Jon has been dealing with good vs evil. Sansa has been dealing with the gray. That's the difference and why Jon is in over his head with human matters. He needs to come to terms with the fact that his only purpose is to defeat the white walkers and I think the writers intentionally show him as being very weak in this episode to work that angle.