Best features of past games

[Diggles]

along those same lines, instead of labeling everyone and every guild, make it so you actually have to interact with NPCS.

Instead of seeing this guy chopping outside is working for Slamz (minion of Slamz, over his head), and either killing him, I have to talk with him to find out more information.

I have to ask him questions like:

Why are your chopping wood here?
Who are you working for?
How much is he paying you?

Depending on my persuasion/charisma/intimidation skills, I can get him to change his original plan.

I threaten his life to give me the wood hes already cut.
I offer to pay him a bit more and get the wood hes already cut.
I threaten his life/his family if he doesnt stop.
I tell him Slamz owes me money and he better give me the money that Slamz gave him.

These would be just a few of many things you could incorporate.

[Kakarat]

along those same lines, instead of labeling everyone and every guild, make it so you actually have to interact with NPCS.

Instead of seeing this guy chopping outside is working for Slamz (minion of Slamz, over his head), and either killing him, I have to talk with him to find out more information.

I have to ask him questions like:

Why are your chopping wood here?
Who are you working for?
How much is he paying you?

Depending on my persuasion/charisma/intimidation skills, I can get him to change his original plan.

I threaten his life to give me the wood hes already cut.
I offer to pay him a bit more and get the wood hes already cut.
I threaten his life/his family if he doesnt stop.
I tell him Slamz owes me money and he better give me the money that Slamz gave him.

These would be just a few of many things you could incorporate.

Sounds to me Diggles wants to be the Godfather of the chopping block. :lol:

Along with what Diggles has said, Slamz could also have one of his guards protecting his woodchopper to prevent those sort of actions.

[Hoofhurr]

Good ideas but don't forget what's fun about competitive gaming. You and your competitor are given the same or similar tools and either through strategy, tactics, or reflexes you out-compete your opponent. The challenge will be to see how these ideas scale up over 100s if not 1000s of interactions but if the complexity quickly becomes so dense that it becomes hard to tell what impact any of your actions have on the game your player base will get bored.

These NPC interactions imo should be paired with a solid combat engine. There's only so much running around chatting with NPCs and sending them on missions that's going to be entertaining for someone like me. If you send out a squad of troops to do something, accompanying them should really improve your chances of success.

I guess, I'm thinking along the lines of a Mount & Blade style game but the entire world is 3D and not top down for the strategy portion.

[Dustie]

I definitely agree that this idea shouldn't be the game. It should be a side component that allows you to unload some of the drudgery that goes along with MMOs to NPC lackeys. I don't want to have 2 hour conversations with each NPC either.

[Slamz]

Incidentally, Mount & Blade is a pretty good model for our underlying idea. The NPCs are running around, taking towns and doing patrols and generally living their lives regardless of what you're doing.

What ultimately turned me off of that game was that the "medieval simulation" style combat just wasn't that exciting. If they spiced up the combat with something a little more fantasy-RPGish, I'd have probably enjoyed it for a lot longer.

[Diggles]

a good game needs to let player do what they enjoy and give them enough variety to keep themselves entertained. if you like combat, then you sell your services as a mercenary. people who enjoy RTS's more could contract you for different jobs...the way real questing should work.

Too many fantasy games focus completely on combat instead of the whole setup and circumstances of the combat.

you might need that wood because you are going to use it to construct a basic wood hill fort on the edge of an untamed wilderness, so your faction can hunt faster or have faster access to a rare resource in the area.

[Dustie]

a good game needs to let player do what they enjoy and give them enough variety to keep themselves entertained. if you like combat, then you sell your services as a mercenary. people who enjoy RTS's more could contract you for different jobs...the way real questing should work.

Too many fantasy games focus completely on combat instead of the whole setup and circumstances of the combat.

you might need that wood because you are going to use it to construct a basic wood hill fort on the edge of an untamed wilderness, so your faction can hunt faster or have faster access to a rare resource in the area.

I agree regarding the variety of things to do. I actually made that a top level item in the outline when we started. While it may seem strange to have it's own heading, I agree its important. I learned that while playing WoW. Just as I was getting to the point where I'd had enough, I'd go fishing, or Battle Grounding, or Engineering etc.

[bonestomper]

i haven't played since EQ so my ideas may be worthless.

imho: all gear should be level / skill based. no PvP super twinks.

all gear should be BoEquip but none BoPickup; so no handme down gear but new drops are tradeable.

if we are worried about connection speed being the sole decider in who wins a fight, then gear has to make a difference.

no magic weapons required for mobs. if i have a stick i can hit you with it, it doesn't have to be a magic stick. as a Barb Shaman in EQ to obtain a magic weapon was the hardest task early in the game. i camped weeks on end in zones no one was in for something i thought i had to have.

i like the resource based where gear has that durability and quality component. but need to add that lvl 1 gear should be 5/5 and top lvl gear should be like 20/20, that way as you progress you don't have to get the gear repaired / replaced at the same rate.

try and balance crafting with rare mob drops. have them finish with the same product but figure a way to balance it out, maybe that everytime the mob is killed a component for the reciepe spawns, but the crafter still has to have the right lvl??

argh, just random thoughts anyway

[Slamz]

I'd like to get back to "realistic circumstances" when it comes to gear and equipment. Stuff like BoP and BoE was meant to solve a specific problem. It was an easy solution but not a good one.

For example,
BoE/BoP were largely implemented to keep rare equipment worth something and so that encounters would not be made worthless for upcoming players. If everyone already has Grubthor's Axe of Power because it's tradable and people simply do hand-me-downs, then pretty soon there are so many of those axes floating around that people basically get handed one when they first make a new character.

A better solution would be some sort of equipment degradation. Another option would be to simply eliminate that kind of gear-based, fixed encounter system.


Similarly, I'm not that comfortable with level/skill limitations on gear. If I pick up a sword, I should be able to swing it with whatever my sword skill is. I would need a really good reason for why I need "Sword skill 50" in order to swing a particular sword.


Of course, you could do stuff like magic swords, where different abilities open up based on your skill with that type of sword (or maybe even with that individual sword). At skill 1 it's just a sharp piece of metal. A skill 2 you figure out how to use its magic to increase your parry rating. At skill 3 you figure out how to use its magic to add fire damage to your hits. At skill 4 you figure out how to use its magic to fling fireballs from it. I'm kind of thinking of "Bleach" here (Japanese anime) where you would not only have sword skill, but you'd also have to become familiar with your sword to unlock its unique abilities.

I could see doing something like that, so that a sword master can do unique things with a sword that a newbie couldn't do. (Magic aside, higher sword skill might open up things like "riposte" or vast improvements to your parry ability, etc.)

[bonestomper]

actually tho, i would be more interested on what you think the end game will look like more than anything else.

[Diggles]

in a living world, items do not last forever like current MMO's. BoE/P was just a bandaid fix for having a bad gear based game model

magic enchanting (done by players or npcs for you) is VERY expensive

The lower your skill the higher durability dmg your gear should take, in addition to not being able to use it to its fullest potential.

[Dustie]

actually tho, i would be more interested on what you think the end game will look like more than anything else.

Exactly

[Diggles]

The Reputation (personal, guild & alliance) system in Eve is by far the most advanced but leaves some room for improvement

Guild and alliance leaders are able to adjust reputation with other guilds and alliances. You can easily track who are are at war with, allies and unknowns and how your guild should handle them.

Will your town be faction only (KOS any non-allies)? or allow open it up to neutrals to spur business and trade.

[Kakarat]

The Reputation (personal, guild & alliance) system in Eve is by far the most advanced but leaves some room for improvement

Guild and alliance leaders are able to adjust reputation with other guilds and alliances. You can easily track who are are at war with, allies and unknowns and how your guild should handle them.

Will your town be faction only (KOS any non-allies)? or allow open it up to neutrals to spur business and trade.

let me add to the last line...

or allow open it up to neutrals to spur business and trade and theft.

[Vllad]

actually tho, i would be more interested on what you think the end game will look like more than anything else.

In the end this game makes PC's the surfers and the NPC factions the wave instead of the other way around in games like WoW, WAR and EQ.

This is what I would see:

I see a world of fluxuating NPC factions rising to power and waning. You would see great NPC Lords rise to power and sweep their armies across other parts of the world creating large battles to be fought all over the map. The larger they grow the harder it is to maintain until finally the great Empires fall and splinter. NPC factions struggle for power and it goes back and forth all over the known world with PC influence.

PC's influence the events but they do not neccessarily control the events. NPC's factions move on their own and eventually may fall on their own. The PC's gain benefits by helping participate in these Factions or by helping destroy these factions.

Instead of waiting hundreds of years to see this kind of history the players would see it happen in a matter of months.

For the Guild PVP player he is hording and monopolizing goods, he is out helping the factions he supports by keeping PC's from helping support rival factions. Players are fighting over resourses, they are paid to kill other players, their are bounties to collect and rival quest to accomplish. Guilds will eventually come into conflict over resourses or by their factions clashing. Their are also NPC factions hiring PC's as mercenaries to fight on their behalf for the larger battles. One guild may face off against each other in one major battle but then fight on the same side on the next. As factions are destroyed Guilds need to move on to help new factions rise to power. If you jump on the band wagon of a large faction to late the benefits of any given faction may not be worth the trouble.

Eventually guilds will clash regularly and rivals should be born which should heat up the guild vs guild portion.

For the Single PVP player we will have avenues available from NPC guilds that represent a Morrowwind style of living. We will have Assassin NPC guilds, Thieve NPC guilds or Merchant NPC guilds that seperate from the normal factions. These factions never die and weave some power through out the entire world that allow for PVP assassinations, caravan attacks, raids, theivery etc. The main factions not only hire these NPC guilds to help bring power to their cities but the NPC's also use these guilds to gain access to PC's to do their dirty work for them.


For the PVE player their will be not only large and small NPC battles to take sides in but by building personal influence (faction rating) you gain access to dungeons or access to killing foes that drop gear, open up new skills or bring in cash.

For example if the faction your guild supports controls the zone that contains Onyxia's Lair then only your guild or anyone who has the faction has access the dungeon Onyxia's Lair.

The PVE player can build his own trade market. If a player remains neutral enough even with other PC's players could play the economy against other players.

Instead of a static world that we dump the players in to fight over and reset it when they accomplish their goals we make the world evolve so the goals evolve based on the faction or factions they are supporting at any given time. This way the single player gets the same enjoyment as the large guild does.


Vllad

[Hoofhurr]

It sounds pretty good but keeping a huge guild of players from dominating the server is going to be a massive challenge. As soon as you get 200 guys all coordinating their NPCs and dominating the map there has to be some built in mechanism whereby the more territory and factions they control the harder it is for them to maintain power. You can't rely on the ego clashes of players to cause implosion.

Maybe some of the large NPC factions have an inherit dislike for each other such that keeping them under the same banner for prolonged periods of time is much more costly than keeping neutral npcs working together.

[Vllad]

It sounds pretty good but keeping a huge guild of players from dominating the server is going to be a massive challenge. As soon as you get 200 guys all coordinating their NPCs and dominating the map there has to be some built in mechanism whereby the more territory and factions they control the harder it is for them to maintain power.

You can control that by creating natural rubber bands. For example the faster a faction grows the more likely you have a splinter. Another way is the larger a faction gets the more resoures it takes to keep it running plus the more likely other factions around the world start picking at it. Basically you make a set of Barbarians that keep taking a piece out of Rome the longer it is around. I don't think their is anything wrong with a 200 man guild that is able to keep a faction floating a month longer then a smaller guild would. It is an accomplishment. As long as it is difficult there is nothing wrong with that. The only thing you have to make sure is that none of them can grow so large as to prevent other players from enjoying their own factions.

Since the NPC's are deciding the fates of other factions more so then the PC's countering large factions is actually easier then getting smallers ones off the ground.


As long as players are aware they will happen before the play the game I don't think it would be an issue.


Vllad

[Dustie]

actually tho, i would be more interested on what you think the end game will look like more than anything else.

In the end this game makes PC's the surfers and the NPC factions the wave instead of the other way around in games like WoW, WAR and EQ.

This is what I would see:

I see a world of fluxuating NPC factions rising to power and waning. You would see great NPC Lords rise to power and sweep their armies across other parts of the world creating large battles to be fought all over the map. The larger they grow the harder it is to maintain until finally the great Empires fall and splinter. NPC factions struggle for power and it goes back and forth all over the known world with PC influence.

PC's influence the events but they do not neccessarily control the events. NPC's factions move on their own and eventually may fall on their own. The PC's gain benefits by helping participate in these Factions or by helping destroy these factions.

Instead of waiting hundreds of years to see this kind of history the players would see it happen in a matter of months.

For the Guild PVP player he is hording and monopolizing goods, he is out helping the factions he supports by keeping PC's from helping support rival factions. Players are fighting over resourses, they are paid to kill other players, their are bounties to collect and rival quest to accomplish. Guilds will eventually come into conflict over resourses or by their factions clashing. Their are also NPC factions hiring PC's as mercenaries to fight on their behalf for the larger battles. One guild may face off against each other in one major battle but then fight on the same side on the next. As factions are destroyed Guilds need to move on to help new factions rise to power. If you jump on the band wagon of a large faction to late the benefits of any given faction may not be worth the trouble.

Eventually guilds will clash regularly and rivals should be born which should heat up the guild vs guild portion.

For the Single PVP player we will have avenues available from NPC guilds that represent a Morrowwind style of living. We will have Assassin NPC guilds, Thieve NPC guilds or Merchant NPC guilds that seperate from the normal factions. These factions never die and weave some power through out the entire world that allow for PVP assassinations, caravan attacks, raids, theivery etc. The main factions not only hire these NPC guilds to help bring power to their cities but the NPC's also use these guilds to gain access to PC's to do their dirty work for them.


For the PVE player their will be not only large and small NPC battles to take sides in but by building personal influence (faction rating) you gain access to dungeons or access to killing foes that drop gear, open up new skills or bring in cash.

For example if the faction your guild supports controls the zone that contains Onyxia's Lair then only your guild or anyone who has the faction has access the dungeon Onyxia's Lair.

The PVE player can build his own trade market. If a player remains neutral enough even with other PC's players could play the economy against other players.

Instead of a static world that we dump the players in to fight over and reset it when they accomplish their goals we make the world evolve so the goals evolve based on the faction or factions they are supporting at any given time. This way the single player gets the same enjoyment as the large guild does.


Vllad

While I disagree with a lot of your skill thread ideas, I couldn't be more aligned with these concept in here. This is exactly the kind of system I'm envisioning based on Slamz initial living world thread.

[Slamz]

Yeah, I think the big thing with this idea is that the NPCs are running the world, not the players. Large guilds of players can have a serious influence, maybe even become their own faction, but even a guild of 200 hard core players will not directly compete with the Red Court Vampires, an NPC faction that has slowly grown to emcompass 20 square miles with a population of 2000 NPCs, each of which is as tough as a player in combat.

The big guild can align with the Black Court Vampires and give that faction a serious boost and perhaps that way defeat the Red Court, but they are still ultimately 200 players amongst 2000 NPC vampires. The more the faction grows, the less total influence that megaguild will have and ultimately parts of the Black Court Vampire faction may decide to break off and form their own faction, regardless of what the players want. In fact, that might be facilitated by Guild Z, who is operating in a distant corner of the Black Court empire and is subverting a number of villages in that area to their own will -- an action which the megaguild may not even know about or be terribly capable of stopping until it's too late.

[Alio]

Also, think outside of the box in regard to these factions. A guild trying to compete with the Red Court Vampires cant simply take 200 people and pull one vampire at a time. Im envisioning a group actually trying to protect its borders/resources. If a party is attacking scouts, how will the NPCs react? If you get into the inner tiers of a minor camp, will they send troops to defend the attack?

We think of attacking factions with a guild of 200 people to be easy. But if the Red Court Vampires have 2000, cant they send them all to defend?

The living world idea works so much better when its not aggro 1 or 2 and whack em down, rinse, repeat. Think of these encounters as war. Guilds working together to take them down or help hold them up against other guilds. Massive PVP scale wars. Not poke aggro- kill a vampire, and move into the camp.

[Slamz]

Yeah, I'd very much like to see a "realistic" style of agro. Which is to say, you don't attack a village of 50 orcs unless you can handle all 50 of them at the same time.

Like you attack the orcs guarding the gate. Programatically, it checks to see how many of you are within "sight" of the orc guards and if it's too many, one guard runs away and starts ringing the bell. Every guard in the town piles out. If you come with a REALLY big attack, one orc runs through the town teleporter and he's off to alert neighboring villages and it won't be long before more guards from other villages start piling out of the teleporter.


Before doing a big attack you would probably need to do something to shut down the village teleporter and also bring enough NPC allies to overwhelm the village.


You know, we really might need the BFME2 engine for this, so we can model these 300-man battles. :lol:

[Vllad]

I think the key is line of sight of some sort and how big the group is. This is subject to abuse.

I think the goal should be to maintain a way for small raids on villages vs a complete take over of villages by PC parties. I do think it is important to leave the ability for 3 man parties to sneak into the town and perform an action. Not to say that 3 guys shouldn't have the threat of being jumped by 50 NPC's but you somehow have to distiguish the difference.

Basically if I run up to the gate and attack the guard it pisses off all guards that see it. Not only the ones that see me but the ones that see any Purge in the area. Essentially once one person goes agro from a guild all are considered agro. This way even though Vllad attacked the front guard out of site of other guards if Slamz is standing around the corner and more guards see him they agro as well.

I would have guard towers that are built around a village or city. If NPC's in those towers see the attacks alarms are rang, alarm fires are lit and runners go out. This gives PC's something else to build in order to protect their cities. Blind spots will be critical to watch with PC's.

This way you have three levels of agro.

The first way is trying not to be KOS. If your faction is so bad that you can't even get close to the gate then you are pretty much resolved to frontal attacks.

The second way is if you have enough faction to walk past the guards you at least can get in and raise hell in a village either via stealth or at least try to kill some guards out of view of the towers so a small party could try to piece mail a city to accomplish a small raid. A small party could also maybe do some theivery of some sort. Well... at least until a tower saw them.

The third way is as soon as the towers go agro then word goes out as fast as runners can get the word out.


This way their are some strats to taking a city.

*You could try to take towers out before the alarm goes out
*Try to take out portal
*Try to take out runners before they get to portal
*Just go straight for barracks

[Arsilon]

NPC's can be killed as well lets not forget. A smaller guild (or faction) could target the critical NPC that has ability X that would help cripple the larger guild. They would need to be able to chip away at their power rather than hit them head on with inferior numbers.

In addition, since we're talking PvP, there's also the possibility of having someone from the smaller guild infiltrate the larger one and disrupt from the inside. This could be left to the PC's only or there could be a dynamic that the NPC's would do this on their own to help accelerate the ebb and flow / rise and fall of faction empires.