The Wire

[Vllad]

And I can't believe you're trying to deny police corruption isn't real.

I don't believe I did or said anything of the kind.

I think it does this with all the issues and social problems it deals with. Back room politics, street culture, race, the drug war, inner city education, journalism, unions, poverty, money in politics, Comstat (crime statistics), testing in schools, drug organizations, etc. What other show is realistic enough to paint a picture of those issues while trying to show both sides of the story? Sure, sometimes it may be lopsided and play favorites, but at least both sides (or many sides) are there.

Are you asking if their are shows that delved in those specific issues or political issues in general?

Actually it is common place in general. You can go back to the original Star Trek or many Norman Lear comedies in the 70's up to and including The Wire. Dealing with political issues in a drama and comedies and looking at it from multiple views is nothing new.

If you are asking about specific issues like inner city education I don't know off hand but I am sure I could find something.

To be clear I am not being critical of its political commentary. I am saying The Wire is no more realistic then any other drama on Television.


Vllad

[Breand]

Reason: What kind of reaction does the show get from the police?

Simon: I thought we'd get a bad reaction, because it clearly is very down on the drug war. In the middle of the first season, after it was clear what the tone of the show was, I went to the FOP [Fraternal Order of Police] lodge off of 41st Street [in Baltimore]. I basically was going to say, "OK, I'm ready to take everybody's shit. What do you have to say?" And they just kept reciting scenes back to me that had made them laugh, that felt real to them.

Ed was a cop for 20 years. I covered that world for 13. We didn't get the shit wrong. A lot of the guys knew the stuff we were referring to, the cases that we were stealing from.

This is also a great snippet from the interview:

Simon: Ed Burns and I spoke at one of those groups. There came this point where a guy said, "Well, what is the solution? Give me the paragraph; give me the lede. What's the solution, if not drug prohibition?"

I very painstakingly said: "Look. For 35 years, you've systematically deindustrialized these cities. You've rendered them inhospitable to the working class, economically. You have marginalized a certain percentage of your population, most of them minority, and placed them in a situation where the only viable economic engine in their hypersegregated neighborhoods is the drug trade. Then you've alienated them further by fighting this draconian war in their neighborhoods, and not being able to distinguish between friend or foe and between that which is truly dangerous or that which is just illegal. And you want to sit across the table from me and say 'What's the solution?' and get it in a paragraph? The solution is to undo the last 35 years, brick by brick. How long is that going to take? I don't know, but until you start it's only going to get worse."

And the guy looked at me and went, "But what's the solution?" He said it again. Ed Burns restrained me.

[Breand]

And I think just the fact they actually have a cast that fits the demographic of Baltimore makes it more realistic than any drama on television. That cast would never have made it onto a major network.

[Jakensama]

To be fair with Vllad - yes, I am bigoted against cops due to my personal experiences with them in several countries as power hungry thugs and during my short stint working for a crooked criminal defense lawyer whose cases, despite his lack of credibility and ethics, showed me cops were just as crooked as the normal criminals. But hey, thats just my interpretation from my experiences, as your experiences with your cop friends make you think all cops are that way.

Ironically, I could also accuse you of bigotry of you saying all criminals are stupid. During my life I have known people in the drug trade who the government considers criminals and who are, fundamentally, fantastic people who led great lives, never destroyed childrend, etc. Thats the whole point of the Wire, that people are pretty much the same regardless of which group they tend to ally themselves with. Fortunately my cops are scum view tends to coincide with my greater world view that people are scum.

As for the reality of the wire. To say it is as fake as any other TV show is just silly. There are certainly elements which are super dramatized, but there are a good deal of elements in the political issues which are taken directly out of Baltimore reality. Morevore, the realism shouldnt be limited to the police portions since it isn't a police show. It isn't equally realistic as CSI, because CSI's link to realism is that it happens to take place in a police station, whereas the wire has a plethora of people who worked in the individual institutions, be they drug dealing, police dealing, news dealing, education dealing, etc. and, by many people in those institutions in Baltimore did a pretty good job of representing what was going on at the time. Is it reality? No, of course not. Is it closer to reality than neutered prime time broadcast television? Absolutely.

As for institutions wearing you down, thats the whole fucking point of the show. You go into a big institution, be it a drug cartel, police force, a union, a school - even if you are a fundamentally good person, eventually the system and the lack of ability to change shit wears people down, in a way that is different than just being tired of work. That was the argument Simon is making, and I think it is a powerful one. The idea of being a cog in a machine is a pretty universal theme in modern American life, regardless of if you work in the underworld, for the government, or for a big private entity. Some people escape it, but it is a pretty heavy reality for a lot of people and how he actually took scum from the street and showed how the basic functioning of their lives is not all that different from those we pay to protect us, represent us for work, report for us, educate us is pretty "spot on".

[Jakensama]

And I think just the fact they actually have a cast that fits the demographic of Baltimore makes it more realistic than any drama on television. That cast would never have made it onto a major network.

Yeah, Snoop doesnt become an actress in many other circumstances...

[Uncle Shags]

And I can't believe you're trying to deny police corruption isn't real.

I don't believe I did or said anything of the kind.

To be clear I am not being critical of its political commentary. I am saying The Wire is no more realistic then any other drama on Television.

You're right. I'm sorry. I overstated your position - you didn't deny. You feel The Wire exaggerates the negative aspects of law enforcement. We can agree to disagree.

As far as compared to other shows? My opinion is that Simon's attempts to paint detailed pictures of many issues from multiple angles through the extensive use of veteran consultants, real life events and current academic theory puts The Wire in the category of "much more realistic" than most shows on TV now, or ever. On that we can just disagree again. No biggie.

[Vllad]

Ironically, I could also accuse you of bigotry of you saying all criminals are stupid.

I didn't say that.

What I said is I agree with The Wire's view that police in general do think criminals are stupid. I conceded that is one area where The Wire is realistic. I never said it was my opinion.

As for institutions wearing you down, thats the whole fucking point of the show. You go into a big institution, be it a drug cartel, police force, a union, a school - even if you are a fundamentally good person, eventually the system and the lack of ability to change shit wears people down, in a way that is different than just being tired of work. That was the argument Simon is making, and I think it is a powerful one.

I do get that is the point of the show. Again while a less then interesting topic the point of the show isn't entirely accurate.

Not everyone does get worn down. Many people flurish in large institutions. While I don't disagree it happens it certainly isn't a representation of reality.

Simon's argument is extreme.

The entire process is an individual effect not an institutional effect which is Simon's argument. I think he is dead wrong. If he were right large institutions just couldn't exist.



Vllad

[Uncle Shags]

Not everyone does get worn down. Many people flurish in large institutions. While I don't disagree it happens it certainly isn't a representation of reality.

Yeah, people flourish on the show in institutions too. But Simon shows how difficult it is and the sacrifices people often have to make to their own integrity and values to move up the ladder or get their job done. Like in real life there are success stories despite the many institutional hurdles. Daniels becomes commissioner, Carver becomes Lieutenant, Pearlman becomes a judge, Carcetti becomes mayor and governor, Bubbles gets clean, etc. But there are also people who get chewed up and spit out. And maybe worse, there are plenty of dirtbags who learn how to manipulate the system and build a career on it. Once again, multiple angles.