HBO - Game of Thrones SPOILERS INSIDE. you have been warned

[Zouji]

Poor poor Dolorous Edd. He was always my favorite minor character in the books. 


Well they could end the series with this episode and I would be fine. The rest of the season will just be a bonus.

[strife]

Yea, it was pretty good. Although I do have issues with it. Why when they were fighting the dragons, wasn't Dany or Jon's dragons breathing fire? The episode was too dark... too hard to tell what the hell was going on at times. Bran is worthless.

I'm going to be kind of pissed if now they try to fight Cersei, and they have this huge army. They got pretty much wiped out in this... all of the dothraki are gone, seemed like pretty much everyone was killed except for most of the main characters.

There were no deaths that hurt. Theon got his redemption, but nobody cared that he died. Who was the biggest character that died? Ghost(I assume he died)?

[Zouji]

The Three Eyed Raven (Bran is essentially dead) did what he was supposed to do. Which was to come up with a plan to draw the Night King out. Then be bait. 


They could still get an army from Dorn. Plus she still has one Dragon which is worth at least a full army by itself. 


The North is dead, the Knights of the Vale are dead, the river lands people are dead, the Highgarden army is gone, the Ironborn are pretty much all with Cerci, and Cerci has the rest of the Lannister troops and the Golden Company. 


Deaths that hurt were another fucking Dragon, all of the Dorthraki and virtually all of the unsullied. The Northmen only had a skeleton army left to begin with.

[Skelas]

I overall enjoyed it, but some scenes bothered me even with full blown suspension of disbelief. Mostly small stuff, but it still took me out of the moment.

-Arya dodging the undead in the library area. We go from a full on scrum with screeching dead storming over the walls, to a middle of the night, sneaking around silence. What the fuck, within 100 yards it's goddamn armageddon, and yet in this magical library it's dead silent.

-When the undead start throwing their bodies on the fire trench to get over, and they start swarming over, there's all of a sudden a call from several characters to "Man the walls!" Really? Walls weren't already manned? It's a surprise they might get through?

-Jon Snow literally surrounded by probably 10000 undead when the Night King does his undead raise, but somehow gets out of that.

It's small stuff, but kinda took me out of the moment. One tidbit I missed completely until I read some stuff online after is that Arya went all faceless man on a white walker and took one of their places, which is how she got so close. I thought she just jumped out of some hidden nook or some shit, which was going to be another "What is this bullshit" moment, but they do have the Red witch foreshadowing of it, and they do show a white walker with an out of character odd side look right before she leaps, so i'm fully in on that.

It was really enjoyable, just a couple of moments I just couldn't swallow.

[strife]

I didn't catch that Arya went faceless there... Going to have to rewatch. If she went Faceless then why would she have attacked out of disguise? I agree with your criticism Skelas.

Zouji, I don't think either of Danys dragons died... Unless I missed it which is possible with how dark it was. Pretty sure the teaser for next week still had both dragons. I think at least one gets killed before the show ends though.

I think the golden company turns sides. My understanding is they were founded by a Targaryen bastard... That's the only way I can see Cersei being defeated.

[Zouji]

Well she could always get stabbed in the face by Arya. But more than likely I see Jamie killing her and becoming the King/Queen/Kinslayer.

Well that or she kills Jamie herself. One or the other.

[strife]

Well she could always get stabbed in the face by Arya. But more than likely I see Jamie killing her and becoming the King/Queen/Kinslayer.

Well that or she kills Jamie herself. One or the other.

I guess I could see Arya assassinating her and not having to fight armies... I just don't see the Northern forces left beating Cersei without some act of god.  Another thing I was thinking is maybe Daario comes and brings the StormCrows... but I don't think they are enough to help.

I don't think Jamie kills her or vice versa.  She's not stupid enough to let him close... 

What would be really interesting is if Jamie was really still working for Cersei and his whole redemption arc was just a ruse!.

[Donions]

How could she have gone faceless? I thought she needed to kill the person to gain their face? What gave it away that it was her as a Wight Lieutenant? I'll have to re-watch for sure.

[Skelas]

It's a hypothesis floating around, after further musing i'm not so sure, but I really don't like the idea that she somehow snuck in there past every White Walker in the world with 1000 wights too and got a clean shot on the Night King. For me, it least it made her able to take the shot plausible, well, within the realm of plausible. The outer realm. Right on the edge of the outer realm. Maybe a toe sticking out. Ok a whole foot.

[Zouji]

She put all of her points into stealth and assassination and the white walkers failed there perception check.

[Vllad]

Arya doing the killing actually makes total sense now that it is done.

Her stealth has been something they have talked about before. She is a faceless man. Jaquen's stealth back in season 2 was what allowed him to get away with killing a Lannister officer right under Tywin's nose.

You see a breeze by something moving past one of the White Walkers when she sneaks past. She was still caught. The Knight King did catch her before she got a sneak attack in. When you look at all the details they did foreshadow this. The Red witch told Arya in season 2 or 3? She did go to badass school. She did become a vengeance machine. What was the point of the whole thing if it wasn't to kill Mr. Badass?

Both Dragons are alive.

The way I see this show now is the finally is over, we get 3 episodes of epilogue so it can now end. Nothing that happens in Kings Landing is important. I guess we now know this show was really about intrigue not something greater otherwise they would have ended with the dead.

I am with Strife though, while they have two dragons their army should be mostly dead. Let's hope they use their smarts to take out Cercei not a huge army.

[strife]

They also foreshadowed Arya sneaking up on someone in one of the earlier episodes when she sneaks up on Jon when he shows her his sword, I think it was in the Godswood as well. And the move she used to kill the NK was similar to her duel with Brienne when she tosses the dagger from one hand to the other.

[Skelas]

Yes, she did sneak up on Jon in the Godswood, one guy looking intently at a tree. Yes, she has been trained for years as an assassin. Sneaking through a 10 deep circle of undead is a completely different matter. And to reference back to the oddly quiet Library scene, where is all this stealth then? That scene paints her as not quite the stealthy killer, and in fact a little panicked. I'm fine with her having an improved invisibility and none of the deputy white walkers having any true seeing, I just think it could have been handled better. Maybe show her taking a wights face, god knows there were enough laying around. It's a small thing, just another moment that took me out of it a little.

[Skelas]

Angry Joe has a pretty good rant on the episode:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5VnIGxAPts

[Vllad]

 And to reference back to the oddly quiet Library scene, where is all this stealth then?  

She did get out of the room without being seen did she not?


I guess the question is do you want the camera to follow Arya as she slinks around the godswood following her every step or do you want to see it from Bran's perspective like they showed?

It wouldn't be near as entertaining watching it from Arya's perspective and it pretty much gives it away.

If I was gonna kill Arya I would show it from Arya's perspective so everyone thinks they know what to expect only when she gets there the Night King crushes her throat.

If Arya is gonna kill the Night King I have no problem seeing it the way they showed it.

[Vllad]

Angry Joe has a pretty good rant on the episode:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5VnIGxAPts

I totally disagree with his rant.

1. He is confusing the books with the show which are not the same thing. The prophecy has only been mentioned with a single sentence in the entire show. If you are only a show watcher the prophecy isn't even known. Plus the prophecy in the books says nothing about who kills the Night King. Joe has put HIS OWN interpretation on the prophecy which GRRM has warned his readers to be careful of. Just because Joe thinks he knows what the prophecy means doesn't mean he actually does. Now he is mad he got it wrong.

2. He is bitching that the most bad ass mother fucker on the show is the one that killed the Night King? uh? He hates that the toughest mother fucker that is alive killed the toughest mother fucker that is dead? What?

3. Would he have felt better if this episode was episode 6? He is mad that this isn't the end? Have you not been paying attention?

4. He has totally lost perspective on the scope of this fight and the Walkers. Just so we are straight, the Walkers won at the Fist, they crushed everyone at Hardhome, they crushed the wall, they crushed the Last Harth, if you want to include the books they have won a few more battles as well. The largest army ever assembled fights them at Winterfell and they kick the shit out of that army as well. Winterfell is a route just like every other battle. Only this time the NK gets his hubris put in check.

THE ONLY OTHER OUTCOME possible for Joe is the Night King wins. IF you are disappointed in this episode then the only outcome that could make you happy is the dead win. No other outcome could make Joe happy based on his rant. The Army of the dead couldn't be beaten, you had to assassinate the Night King period. This was not a winnable battle. I believe Jon clearly laid it out that assassination was the only option. The battle itself was a diversion. The problem with Joe's rant is he doesn't come out and say he wanted the dead to win. He wants living to win but totally ignores that the battle itself wasn't relevant. Joe's stance makes no sense.


Ultimately this is the problem today with social media.

SOOO many people build up their theories on how they think the story should go that they end up taking a side on how the story should end before they even see the end of the story. When the story play's out this leads to nitpicking that makes no sense.

Hey, you don't like story? Fine, but if you presume how the story ends you can never be satisfied.

Joe is someone that would be pissed if Jon really wasn't the son of Lyanna and Rheagar. Why? Because it has been speculated so long that he is that if the story turned out he wasn't EVEN if the story was good Joe would still be disappointed.

People have serious problems keeping book and other media mediums separated. The story has been around so long that too many folks have built into their head there own story. When they watch something that didn't match what was in there head they can't enjoy the story any longer.

[strife]

People have serious problems keeping book and other media mediums separated

I know I do. I think I called Daario's mercenaries the Storm Crows in an earlier post... in the show they are the Second Sons.  I'm sure I get a lot of the details mixed up.

I don't think Joe is totally wrong.... but most of his points are everyone's points.  Yes the battle plan was pretty stupid and the Dothraki were completely wasted for no reason.  Yes the dragons were used poorly.  The lighting was terrible.  Basically none of the big characters died, seemingly protected by plot armor.  How the fuck all of the Dothraki died but Jorah makes it back scott free... How Ghost disappears but is still alive.  

But I don't have a problem with Arya killing the NK.  I don't think Arya had any magical stealth or went faceless as a wight to get to the NK.  I think her stealth was just being quiet and staying out of sight... nothing magical.  Joe acts like she materialized out of thin air... it was fucking dark yo!  

I do think the show has led everyone to believe it was going to be Jon with the whole resurrection and all the Melisandre predictions and such...  I do hope that the show explains these. I hope they don't just leave it where it's at.

[Vllad]

People have serious problems keeping book and other media mediums separated

  Yes the battle plan was pretty stupid and the Dothraki were completely wasted for no reason.  Yes the dragons were used poorly.  

I have seen this complaint but no one actually offers any opinions on what exactly they should have done that creates a different outcome. 

The Dothraki were used how they always fight. It didn't matter how they were used the entire army was going to die anyway. There was no beating the army of the dead conventionally. They could have left the Dothraki in the castle but they weren't much good there. As they explained last episode, the army was there to buy time. The Dothraki did that. 

The Dragon thing I don't get at all. 

The used the dragons to burn undead. Once Jon finds the White Walkers he tries to burn them as well. The NK brings a big storm in and then the dragons are useless because they can't see. Chalk a win up to the NK. Once the trench is lit Danny burns more Wights while Jon waits at the Godswood for the NK. Once the NK shows up they both use the dragons to fight the NK until eventually they lose their dragons. They actually succeeded in trying to burn the NK but it failed. In my opinion the Dragons were used perfectly but as we find out in the episode the Dragons were no more useful then just trying to buy more time. Short of using the dragons to fly away what more could 2 dragons do? They weren't going to save the army, it wasn't enough dragons to burn all the undead and they are constantly at risk of being killed. 

The Night King played it perfectly. 

He kept White Walkers out of the fight so they didn't die and he loses his army. He wasn't foolish enough to engage in 1v1 combat without his dragon, he destroyed the army protecting Bran and went for him with a full compliment of guards. He has the Dragon protect the entrance of the Godswood so no one could get in. All he had to do was kill Theon and Bran was his. 


You could make a case they should have tried to assassinate him before he got to Winterfell but without his army engaged that probably wasn't going to succeed. To the me the entire sequence makes perfect sense. There was only two possible outcomes strategically. Assassinate the NK or everyone dies. 

Jon didn't make it but Arya did. The NK dies so therefore the Wight Walkers and the Dragon dies, once the White Walkers die the Wights die. That is exactly how it played out. 


This brings me back to my original comments about Angry Joe. What he doesn't seem to understand is there was no beating the army of the dead. They slaughtered everyone in the field, shit they took Winterfell very quickly vs. the "largest army ever assembled". Complaining about Military plans means nothing the outcome was always going to be the same. 

 B&W stayed true to GRRM story that the undead army can't be beat. It wasn't beaten during Brand the Builders time either. As Zouji said earlier it came down to assassination or death. Any complaints by Angry Joe just shows he was selectively paying attention.

[Zouji]

Yeah the Night Kings army probably numbered in the millions. The total forces at Winterfell were maybe 150,000. You can't win against those odds vs an opponent that does not need to eat, drink, sleep, and is immune to disease. 


One thing that I personally want to see is for Arya to try to go all faceless man on Cerci, but then get her throat crushed by the Undead Mountain. That would cause a sea of tears on the internet.

[OrsunVZ]

I am more in Joe's camp on this one. And yes, Vllad, I do also mix the books and show together - definitely a fair criticism for many of the agro show watchers.

Arya getting the kill bothers me only in the sense that I didn't know trampolines had been installed in the godswood. When you watch that last sequence, the only indication of Arya's presence was that ever so brief breath of wind. The problem is, at no point has the show indicated she can go invisible. And that IS what she would have had to do. When you rewatch the scene, bran was completely surrounded. The White walkers were behind the NK (the direction Arya came from). And look how far Theon had to run to get to the NK. That's the distance Aria had to cross. The ONLY way for her to have reached him, was for her to be invisible.

This is the major flaw in the show's presentation of this ending. If we had prior knowledge that she had invisibility, it becomes feasible. But we don't have that. What Jacquen pulled off on the lannisters was at night with a spread out group of guards at relative ease etc. This was really quite different.

But not only does Arya now have invisibility, but she also has super human leaping abilities.

In the end, that particular scene could have been handled 100x better. Hell, just Jon getting through and creating a distraction would have helped, or just some other indication explaining HOW... and that is what people are in an uproar about. We are left asking ourselves HOW!?!?!?!

By itself, I could probably forgive it, but the other issues in the episode are so many. The ham-fisted foreshadowing, plot armor etc were ridiculous. So by the time we got to the end, I had already been taken out of the moment, and silly things just started cascading out of the episode.

I have heard MANY different ways the dothraki should have been used. Would the outcome be different in the end? No. I think you're absolutely right that they were going to get mowed over regardless. But cavalry is used to flank an otherwise already engaged enemy. Basic strategy. And enough people saw the stupidity of the charge regardless of how futile it was going to be in the end. Them being enveloped as quickly as they were is also a problem. Just the physical presence of the bodies themselves wouldn't allow for it (hall blocking ftw!). Why didn't the trebs fire first and at least "light the way" a little (yes obviously there were budget things to think about). How is it that Jorah is the only one to make it back? Not a single guard in the crypts? really? I really hope they explain what the hell Bran was doing the entire time. How about the mindless undead giant picking up Mormont junior. Why?! Just for the sake of the visual and dumb fan service - like most of the other issues.

Trebuchets set up in front of the fiery trench instead of behind. Hell even the soldiers being in front of the trench instead of behind... The Trebs not continuing to fire? Why weren't they inside the walls even? Why weren't the wights being fired on with arrows while they were stuck behind the flame wall. Why was the library deathly quiet, while literal hell is going on outside? The number of times where we got overhead shots of our heroes surrounded by totally overwhelming odds that they had zero chance of surviving more than a few seconds (and yet dragged out for ages).

The seemingly immortal hero characters of the series I have issues with as well. I think that last sequence showing almost nobody left except those characters, with their backs against the walls, or in Sam's case, literally getting dogpiled on the ground and still not dying... the way it was shot, and how dragged out it was, I found myself saying out loud "oh, come on, I get it... could you drag it out any longer???" The fact they weren't dying, I could forgive because these are undead, and perhaps are flailing wildly rather than aiming. But if that's the case, then the other soldiers should have lasted longer too right?

I did have an issue that none of the white walker generals did anything, but you very correctly point out that if they were killed their soldiers would have been too, and they wouldn't have exposed themselves to that. I hadn't thought about that.

I also think they scaled the walls way too easily. Then Theon's charge was just a dumb move. The lighting of the trench was also dumb. You had guys running there with torches one by one getting taken out, why not do what they did for melissandre, for the guys holding the torches??

The bottom line for me: I don't have any problem with Arya being the one to take out the NK. I have a HUGE problem with how the show writers attempted/failed to explain to the viewers why and how. This episode just challenged the willing suspension of disbelieve too much, for too many people. And where the books affect my bias, is not because of the difference in story, but rather because I was NEVER left with the sense of 'how the eff?!" when I was watching Martin's writing vs the shows writing. He knew had to explain stuff better, and he did. These guys got stuck wanting to show very specific vignettes, and were too in love/focused with the visual they were going to create.

All that said, it was a beautiful looking episode after I turned the brightness all the way up on my older TV. Everything about the Dothraki charge was visually mind blowing. The swords being lit up. The lights of the dothraki flickering out. From the perspective of Jon and Dany, the wave breaking on the undead front was also just incredible. I do wish I could have seen just a slightly better glimpse of what they ran into. The two dragons fighting over the godswood, while Theon was fending off the undead was amazing - really really amazing.

[strife]

People have serious problems keeping book and other media mediums separated

  Yes the battle plan was pretty stupid and the Dothraki were completely wasted for no reason.  Yes the dragons were used poorly.  

I have seen this complaint but no one actually offers any opinions on what exactly they should have done that creates a different outcome. 

The Dothraki didn't serve any purpose, other than for the show to show you the overwhelming numbers the NK had.  The dragons pushed too deep. They should have been stationed around choke points closer to the castle.  The only defense against the dragons was the NK, that would have forced his hand in pushing to the castle where he would be susceptible to the dragon glass ballistas we didn't have.  Or at least get him close enough to where you can see if one dragonglass arrow would take the dragon down.  They needed more choke points. Look how long the dead just stood there after they set the trenches on fire. That was prime time to dragon fire the hell out of them. They needed more of this. 

You kill the zerg with choke points and AOE, you don't send in your zealots. 

Here's a decent discussion on tactics for the battle.  Some of it good, some of it bad : https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/4/30/18...l-military

[strife]

One thing that I personally want to see is for Arya to try to go all faceless man on Cerci, but then get her throat crushed by the Undead Mountain. That would cause a sea of tears on the internet.

Have her face caved in like happened to Oberyn would probably break the internet.

[Vllad]

[quote pid='203877' dateline='1556774140']
 Look how long the dead just stood there after they set the trenches on fire. That was prime time to dragon fire the hell out of them. They needed more of this. 

[/quote]

Dany was burning them the entire time they were stuck behind the trench and even beyond that up until the NK showed up.

[strife]

[quote pid='203877' dateline='1556774140']
 Look how long the dead just stood there after they set the trenches on fire. That was prime time to dragon fire the hell out of them. They needed more of this. 

Dany was burning them the entire time they were stuck behind the trench and even beyond that up until the NK showed up.
[/quote]

Not really, I just watched the scene and she attacked one time out away from the trenches after they lit them(granted, she may off camera been attacking out more). The dead just stood there until the NK told them to start making paths in the trenches.  They needed to light up the area around the trenches, keep that area saturated with fire at the choke points.

[Vllad]

The White walkers were behind the NK (the direction Arya came from). And look how far Theon had to run to get to the NK. That's the distance Aria had to cross. The ONLY way for her to have reached him, was for her to be invisible. 

What Jacquen pulled off on the lannisters was at night with a spread out group of guards at relative ease etc. This was really quite different.

But not only does Arya now have invisibility, but she also has super human leaping abilities.

I have heard MANY different ways the dothraki should have been used. Would the outcome be different in the end? No. I think you're absolutely right that they were going to get mowed over regardless. But cavalry is used to flank an otherwise already engaged enemy. Basic strategy. 


The lighting of the trench was also dumb. You had guys running there with torches one by one getting taken out, why not do what they did for melissandre, for the guys holding the torches??

I can get on board with kind of what you are saying O but I think you are leaping like Joe was.

You assume Arya had to be invisible and I am unsure how you make that leap. We don't see how she got in the Godswood nor which direction she came from. The NK's boys were standing over to where Theon died. The NK walked the distance that Theon ran from Bran. The NK is Theon's running distance from his guards when Arya attacks.

You only see Arya leap from about 5 or 6 feet away (don't forget it was in slow motion). Shit I am old and can still leap 5 or 6 feet. In high school I could long jump 17 feet. It was dark, she could have come from the woods.

Ultimately I get your frustration, you want to know how Arya got there. You don't know, so why would you assume she would have to be invisible? Their isn't the possibility of any other option? We weren't shown so I am not sure why that would frustrate you? In the end what difference would it make?



Cavalry isn't used for just flanking. It can be used for that but it sure wasn't used for that in the American Civil War, Mongolians, Huns, William the Conqueror and best Cavalry armies that ever existed were used for many different purposes. Including frontal assaults to mow down front line non piked heavy infantry. Again having a tactics discussion isn't really relevant, the army was dead no matter what they did. No amount of good tactics matters in this case.

It's like pondering how a 6 year old boy with a spear can use better tactics to defeat a Tiger. I have news for you no tactics are going to save the 6 year boy. The boy needs a better strategy not better tactics.   


On lighting the trench. Do you remember in the books when Nan talks about the Long Night that the Night King brings? He can make it so cold that lighting a fire is no longer possible? My take on viewing that scene is the storm that the NK brings wasn't going to allow the trench to be lit by torches and flame arrows. The flames were going out. It had to be lit magically. That is why they protected Mel. Plus how do you organize protection for a bunch of random dudes running at the trench from different directions?


In general I think people are piling on because of reasons I certainly can't grasp. If people are upset over tactics shown in GOT then they must blow their fucking minds on other forms of entertainment. Their isn't a movie or show that has EVER been made that depicts combat accurately. Especially ancient combat. Why do people expect GOT to change that? None of their combat has been any more accurate than any other show.


At this point one of the greatest shows that was ever created is coming to an end. If people are mad at the show now it is probably not the show's fault as much as it is the viewers themselves.