HBO - Game of Thrones SPOILERS INSIDE. you have been warned

[Zouji]

No one in power (that has fought tooth and nail to keep power) will willingly give that power up to the masses. So of course the commoners will never have a say in the affairs of Lords. So the reaction to Sam's speech was perfect.

[strife]

No one in power (that has fought tooth and nail to keep power) will willingly give that power up to the masses. So of course the commoners will never have a say in the affairs of Lords. So the reaction to Sam's speech was perfect.

I hated the point that the speech was even made. That entire scene was like a cartoon of the series. It didn't fit.  Sam's speech was stupid.  Edmure Tully's speech was stupid.  Hell, even Tyrion's speech was stupid.  I just hated that entire scene.  Oh, and I hated Sam bringing the book out a the meeting later in the episode, I joked about the show ending with some current day people reading the book as the way the show ended... it almost fucking happened!

[Zouji]

https://twitter.com/FoldableHuman/status...9593783296

[strife]

https://twitter.com/FoldableHuman/status...9593783296

Pretty funny... BUT who can read that damn fast.

[Zouji]

https://twitter.com/FoldableHuman/status...9593783296

Pretty funny... BUT who can read that damn fast.

People that understand the use of the pause button. I often pause shows, videos, etc to look at what the hell the characters are reading or what is written in the background. You find all kinds of random amusing stuff by doing that.

[Vllad]

Now that it is over I thought I would list some of my final thoughts on GOT. It has some of my all time favorite TV things about it and some thing I am not sure will ever get the chance to be duplicated again.

Epic Scenes: (in no particular order)

*Two dragons flying over the clouds in a moon lit night
*The Fire in Melissandra's eyes when she lights the pit
*Winter came to the Frey's
*Holding the Door
*The Mountain and the Viper
*Smoke Baby
*Jon standing in front of charging horses
*Raising of the hands at Hardhome

Favorite Quotes:

*If you think this has a happy ending you haven't been paying attention
*There is no cure for being a cunt
*It really is all about the cocks in the end
*The night is dark and full of terrors
*Tell them Winter came for House Frey
*I understand that if any more words come pouring out your cunt mouth, I'm gonna have to eat every fucking chicken in this room
*Nothing fucks you harder then time


Scenes that actually sparked the most emotion for myself:

Hardhome
Burning of Shireen
Rob having his wolf's head sewn on him
Arya's murder spree in Season 3
Jon's death was still bothered me even though I was thoroughly prepared for it
Jon and Sansa reuniting in Season 6
Holding the Door

Favorite Episodes:

Hardhome s5e8
The Long Night s8e3
The Mountain and the Viper s4e8
The Winds of Winter s6e10
The Lion and the Rose s4e2 (Just because I fucking hate Joffrey)
Walk of Punishment s3e3 (maybe the funniest episode)

[strife]

I'll have to say that of any show I've ever watched... GoT is probably my favorite. It was one of the only shows that really shocked me at times, and brought out emotions. Granted as the show went on, some of the shocking moments were less shocking, just because you kind of get used to it. But still... I don't think any other shows come close to it.

One of the best scenes that you didn't mention was when Dany traded Drogon for the unsullied. That was a "Hell yes!" moment.

[Dharus]

Its weird that after reading all of the books a while ago.  The part I remember the most wasn't even in the show.

I forgot the character's name but he was with Tyrion when he fled toward Dany.  He thought he had dragon blood in him.  Then reading his chapter, his friend is looking behind him in terror and he's wondering why.  Then he turns to see the dragon and looks down as he disbelieves he's on fire and melting.  Probably one of the best "oh shit" moments in the books by a character that was completely unnecessary and boring.

The writing was decent in that it was by character and their point of view.  I hated Jamie in the first book but as you read further you start to understand him and feel sorry for him.  I didn't really get that feeling from the show.  There is a subtle story telling in the books at times that HBO just flat out throws in your face.  The Knight of Flowers being gay for example.  That's not to sound like a hit on the show.  It wasn't bad but as it went on and I continued to read other novels, I started to cool on the show's plots.

[Slamz]

Alright, I have been binge watching the show now that it's over. I has opinions now:

I don't think they realized they were throwing away the Dothraki against the army of the dead. If anything I think it's silly and unrealistic that they did so poorly. It may even have been more like "oops no more budget let's get rid of the horsemen from a distance with some lights". What I would have really expected from a bunch of 2000 pound horses slamming into a bunch of brittle zombies with no formation on an open field with no pikes is more like Theodan's charge against the orcs: just flat out smashes quite a lot of them.

I think a better presentation would have been something like that, with the difference that there just ends up being too many undead. The cavalry charges in, mows down a bunch, comes back, goes back in, mows down a bunch and right about round 3 they're just too exhausted to do it again and the undead are still coming. Like "well that worked great and was a fine idea but they aren't staying dead from horse ramming and there's just too many of em."

It also shows that staying behind the defenses was apparently pointless. They weren't winning that fight no-way-no-how.

So I think the presentation was flawed but the strategy itself seemed reasonable at the time. They just underestimated what they were up against. Nothing we'd seen up to this point showed how dangerous masses of undead really could be.


Granted, stashing people in the crypt for safety against a guy whose main ability is to raise the dead strikes me as a dumber idea. Someone probably should have thought of that.


The Arya kill I thought was reasonable. We're really not given a great overview of the Godswood other than there's a lot of trees in there. Given her moves in the fights up to that point, my bet would be she was in the trees and quite possibly came at the Night King from a combination of using the trees and then leaping off the heads of the massed undead standing around behind him. I don't think she was being sneaky so much as fast and acrobatic. I do wonder if she was being given an assist of some sort by Bran, though. He was clearly doing something but he didn't say and nothing in the show made it obvious what he was doing. Given what he could do with Hodor, it made me wonder if he was helping her sneak around more effectively, if not by impacting her then by impacting any undead that should have seen her. But that's pure conjecture since she just shows up with no explanation other than we know she's got moves.

[Diggles]

Here are just a few of the things a decent general would have done differently

https://youtu.be/EA5mJRFaI8c

[Slamz]

I'm lost on why to even have the nights watch now.  What are they protecting the "south" from?  It made sense before with the white walkers and the wildlings being the enemy.  Now the Wildlings are friendly and even part of the nights watch, and the white walkers are gone.... so what's the point?

My thinking on this is that Bran has a few things in mind. Some things have been lost over time... like how DID that wall get built? Presumably the Three-Eyed Raven knows, and a good use for the Nights Watch would be to go dig up some old legends that might bring a golden age back to men. If I was going to do an off-shoot show, then one about the Nights Watch going around searching for legends would be an idea.


Incidentally, I liked the ending overall.

I rate all endings relative to the ending of Battlestar Galactica, which I think still makes me angry. The ending of GOT was way better and I thought they wrapped up things nicely. Most of the dumb stuff I just kind of ignore in an eye-rolling-there-goes-Hollywood sort of way. Like really there was nothing wrong with Dany having half her army after the battle of Winterfell. Story-wise there's nothing wrong with it but I agree that the way they filmed Winterfell left us to wonder where the hell all those survivors were even hiding. The place isn't even big enough to hold half an army and it looked pretty thoroughly cleaned out. But, good story, if you ignore the way some of it was filmed.

[Vllad]

Here are just a few of the things a decent general would have done differently

https://youtu.be/EA5mJRFaI8c

I won't argue that GOT has any good generals but that guys video is just as dumb as the GOT guys.

*He uses examples that assumes you are fighting people who have moral and actually have a supply chain plus no ability to ever tire or care if you are hurt. No historical reference is relevant when fighting an army of the dead.

*Gorilla warfare against the undead is a very stupid suggestion. 1. They need zero supply 2. In theory they can run forever without growing tired so the risk isn't worth the reward. 3. Hit and run vs an enemy that severely out numbers you just doesn't work. (see Persians vs. Greeks). Finally short of creating a bottleneck this fight was over long before it began.

*Light Cav he clearly states in the video is about rolling up flanks and causing moral to blow. That can't happen vs. the undead so he pretty much just confirms that Light Cav in a fight vs. the undead is completely useless.

*The Dothraki have no benefit or roll to play in this fight unless you take them off their horse (which makes them worse). They are not Heavy Cav so their ability to push 100k of undead is very limited. Besides Horses can knock people down but vs. undead so what. Trampling them won't do anything.

*Defense in depth sounds good assuming you have time. However given the few days they had to prepare that doesn't sound realistic either.

In the end over analyzing TV/Movie battles is dumb however no amount of good strategy would have mattered in the Winterfell battle. The end result was the same, there was no winning the fight no matter what you did. Jon said it clearly, you had to kill the Night King or die.

[Zouji]

The only way to win that fight was more or less how they did it in the show. Do a bunch of dumb things and get all of your guys killed. When the Night King thinks he has won then attack when his guard is down. 

That is your only chance of success. 


The undead probably numbered closer to the 1-2 million+ range.  That plus Night King magic means you would never win against their army. Undead can replace all of the loses that they take (and more). Humans can not.

[Skelas]

I guess for me the worst critique I can throw at the end of GOT is my total apathy for the outcome. Bran is the King? Ok. John sent north? Sure, I don't give a shit. Drogon just noped out of Westeros? why not.

[Slamz]

That's kinda what I liked about it, though: closure. Felt like a good wrap-up. I can see where there's room for spin offs but it didn't leave me hungry. Felt like walking out of the theater at the end of a good movie. All wrapped up, time to go do something else.

Only part I kinda frown on there in the end is Sansa is queen in the north because northerners won't bend the knee, unless it's to a Stark, but....Bran... is a ... Stark... so.... why didn't they just bend to him instead of her? Seems like that would be the one and only reason the north WOULD join the realm: because a Stark got the throne.

[Vllad]

Yea that was the only part that bothered me as well. I was really good with how it ended. Everything made sense to me and it was fulfilling for myself.

Sansa's decision is a future war waiting to happen and very short sided and quite frankly should have lead to everyone breaking up but whatever. That is a small thing.

[Zouji]

It was a war then, or a war latter. Bran can't have an heir and under the new system the next king will be elected. So it is logical that the North would want to be independent again. The only reason anyone has to conquer the North is to just say they own the land. It is kind of the shit hole of Westeros. White Harbor city is the only thing of value in the North. 


The next big war will happen when the next King (or the one after that) decides that they want their heir to inherit the throne. The rest of the six kingdoms will stay together as long as they see more value in being united than they do being separated. With the next king being elected, any of the great houses could be the next King of the 6 Kingdoms. 

Either that or the IronBorn will start a war by raiding the North, which will prompt the North to hit back. This potentially triggers a Casus Belli by the 6 Kingdoms. 


Or they may be no more wars for 1000 years as we don't know how long the 3 eyed raven can live. He may plug himself into the Godswood and become the immortal God-Emperor of Westeros.

[Diggles]

Here are just a few of the things a decent general would have done differently

https://youtu.be/EA5mJRFaI8c

I won't argue that GOT has any good generals but that guys video is just as dumb as the GOT guys.

*He uses examples that assumes you are fighting people who have moral and actually have a supply chain plus no ability to ever tire or care if you are hurt. No historical reference is relevant when fighting an army of the dead.

*Gorilla warfare against the undead is a very stupid suggestion. 1. They need zero supply 2. In theory they can run forever without growing tired so the risk isn't worth the reward. 3. Hit and run vs an enemy that severely out numbers you just doesn't work. (see Persians vs. Greeks). Finally short of creating a bottleneck this fight was over long before it began.

*Light Cav he clearly states in the video is about rolling up flanks and causing moral to blow. That can't happen vs. the undead so he pretty much just confirms that Light Cav in a fight vs. the undead is completely useless.

*The Dothraki have no benefit or roll to play in this fight unless you take them off their horse (which makes them worse). They are not Heavy Cav so their ability to push 100k of undead is very limited. Besides Horses can knock people down but vs. undead so what. Trampling them won't do anything.

*Defense in depth sounds good assuming you have time. However given the few days they had to prepare that doesn't sound realistic either.

In the end over analyzing TV/Movie battles is dumb however no amount of good strategy would have mattered in the Winterfell battle. The end result was the same, there was no winning the fight no matter what you did. Jon said it clearly, you had to kill the Night King or die.

I think you missed the point of the video.

Cav doesnt charge huge formations of infantry, even if they are weakly undead.

Start engaging the enemy with your mobility before a final confrontation, help slow them down for more prep time

Create more obstacles to spread enemy apart and let light cav harass them

[Zouji]

No we got the point of the video. Those tactics just won't work versus 1-2+ million undead. Let's say you executed all of your plans perfectly had an amazing defense and your soldiers never broke morale. They would still all die and be reanimated as undead. The best thing you can do with your army is to send at least half of them south and hope you can defeat the Night King via trickery. That way you would at least have some troops left. 

I think one of the reasons that so many of the troops magically survived the attack is that the undead were going for overrunning the living. Not necessarily going for kill all the living. So if you were buried or injured under a bunch of bodies they probably would just continue charging past you.

[Vllad]

The army was only there as a side show, tactics were irrelevant since the end result was going to be the same.

Given that they already knew the above the more simple the plan is the better since if you don't kill the Night King the rest doesn't matter.

[Skelas]